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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Noam Chomsky on Russiagate - Its a bad joke (Read 296 times)
forgotten centrist
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Re: Noam Chomsky on Russiagate - Its a bad joke
Reply #10 - Dec 6th, 2018 at 9:55am
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petep wrote on Dec 5th, 2018 at 5:59pm:
running deer - can you name any socialist regime that wasn't incredibly repressive - the ussr, cuba, german national socialist party, chavez in venezuela etc...heck, even jim jones mini jonestown socialist model..


You are conflating socialism with communism.  Communism, as implemented by the soviets, involved state ownership of everything.  Socialism is a big-tent word that includes a lot of things but not generally the state-ownership of the means of production.

By lumping them together, you're making the case that because communism failed, all aspects and elements that fall anywhere within the umbrella of socialism must also fail.  But much of modern europe is a glaring counterexample to your narrative.

Further, there have been times and places where weak, limited governments have yielded to robber barons, who fill the vacuum with their own private-sector "that takes most of the resources from individuals in order to maintain power".

There have been shameful excesses on both sides.  We are better off taking the best from both and building a stronger alloy of public and private life.
  

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Re: Noam Chomsky on Russiagate - Its a bad joke
Reply #11 - Dec 6th, 2018 at 10:09am
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forgotten centrist wrote on Dec 6th, 2018 at 9:55am:
You are conflating socialism with communism.  Communism, as implemented by the soviets, involved state ownership of everything.  Socialism is a big-tent word that includes a lot of things but not generally the state-ownership of the means of production.

By lumping them together, you're making the case that because communism failed, all aspects and elements that fall anywhere within the umbrella of socialism must also fail.  But much of modern europe is a glaring counterexample to your narrative.

Further, there have been times and places where weak, limited governments have yielded to robber barons, who fill the vacuum with their own private-sector "that takes most of the resources from individuals in order to maintain power".

There have been shameful excesses on both sides.  We are better off taking the best from both and building a stronger alloy of public and private life.


I gave very specific examples of socialist, large centralized govts that abused their people.

Please provide specific examples of limited decentralized govts that preached self reliance, free Mets etc - that means names of countries -  supporting your argument. That would include how many people they exterminated,  jailed etc.
  
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Re: Noam Chomsky on Russiagate - Its a bad joke
Reply #12 - Dec 6th, 2018 at 10:14am
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Can I include people killed, economically-enslaved, and otherwise harmed by private sector forces operating in a power-vacuum?  Because that's what I'm talking about.
  

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Re: Noam Chomsky on Russiagate - Its a bad joke
Reply #13 - Dec 6th, 2018 at 10:18am
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petep wrote on Dec 5th, 2018 at 5:59pm:
There has never, ever, once, in the history of mankind...been a brutal regime that held control over people, by preaching and practicing a small decentralized gov't, more individual liberties and self reliance...they are always the same...large centralized gov'ts....


How about Pinochet in Chile? Doesn't he fit the bill?

He was a small government free market guy. He was supported by the US and he had connections with free market economists from Chicago, such as Milton Friedman.

And we all know about how Pinochet dealt with political enemies...
« Last Edit: Dec 6th, 2018 at 10:24am by TowardLiberty »  

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Re: Noam Chomsky on Russiagate - Its a bad joke
Reply #14 - Dec 6th, 2018 at 10:56am
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forgotten centrist wrote on Dec 6th, 2018 at 10:14am:
Can I include people killed, economically-enslaved, and otherwise harmed by private sector forces operating in a power-vacuum?  Because that's what I'm talking about.


Just name the countries. I named several.
  
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Re: Noam Chomsky on Russiagate - Its a bad joke
Reply #15 - Dec 6th, 2018 at 11:14am
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TowardLiberty wrote on Dec 6th, 2018 at 10:18am:
How about Pinochet in Chile? Doesn't he fit the bill?

He was a small government free market guy. He was supported by the US and he had connections with free market economists from Chicago, such as Milton Friedman.

And we all know about how Pinochet dealt with political enemies...


I think you are missing the entire point.

Again, let’s forget about left or right for a minutes, and focus on size of govt. from 1964 up until the coup socialist and marxists were in power. In tbe 1970 changeover the leader was a self proclaimed Marxist.

The point is by turning over individual ownership and wealth of most of tbe economy and society chiles citizens created a situation ripe for a bad person to seize control.

So yes, Chile was praised for its remarkable economic turnaround. But those targeted, albeit wrong, were political Marxist Lenenists from the old regime. People were free to travel in and out of Chile, you could listen to shortwave, you could read books of your choosing etc. hardly the ussr. But it was a socialist govt before he seized power using Chile’s military. The people had no say.

My point is if you abdicate to a large socialist govt, even if the govt is good and well intentioned. You e down the seeds for any bad apple to jump in.

Heck the infamous mayor of providence Rhode Island buddy Cianci always win 80 plus percent of tbe vote and was widely credited for turning providence around. He also had mob ties and was convicted a couple times. Longest mayorship in us history.
  
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Re: Noam Chomsky on Russiagate - Its a bad joke
Reply #16 - Dec 6th, 2018 at 11:54am
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petep wrote on Dec 6th, 2018 at 11:14am:
I think you are missing the entire point.

Again, let’s forget about left or right for a minutes, and focus on size of govt. from 1964 up until the coup socialist and marxists were in power. In tbe 1970 changeover the leader was a self proclaimed Marxist.

The point is by turning over individual ownership and wealth of most of tbe economy and society chiles citizens created a situation ripe for a bad person to seize control.

So yes, Chile was praised for its remarkable economic turnaround. But those targeted, albeit wrong, were political Marxist Lenenists from the old regime. People were free to travel in and out of Chile, you could listen to shortwave, you could read books of your choosing etc. hardly the ussr. But it was a socialist govt before he seized power using Chile’s military. The people had no say.

My point is if you abdicate to a large socialist govt, even if the govt is good and well intentioned. You e down the seeds for any bad apple to jump in.

Heck the infamous mayor of providence Rhode Island buddy Cianci always win 80 plus percent of tbe vote and was widely credited for turning providence around. He also had mob ties and was convicted a couple times. Longest mayorship in us history.

I'm not sure why you say I am missing the point. You asked for an example of a small government system that brutalized it's citizens. I gave you an example of one.
  

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Re: Noam Chomsky on Russiagate - Its a bad joke
Reply #17 - Dec 6th, 2018 at 12:23pm
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Company towns set up company stores, issued scrip, and extracted every bit of "pay" they paid their workers.  Here in the US, many years ago.  Google the Colorado Coalfield War for an example of a Rockefeller-owned company town cracking down on humanity, all with private-sector actors.

Sub-saharan Africa is all but devoid of effective government authorities, and people are murdered, exploited, and enslaved continuously by gang leaders who fill in the power vacuum.

Much of central america "enjoys" governments that are so weak and ineffective that street gangs have calcified and formed their own de facto reign -- private actors extracting money from public commerce in a manner far worse than the IRS ever was.
  

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Re: Noam Chomsky on Russiagate - Its a bad joke
Reply #18 - Dec 6th, 2018 at 12:34pm
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so between 1973 and 1990 it's estimated that 3,000 people were killed by the pinochet dictatorship govt...1850 of these were killed during the first three months of the coup...though many political dissidents were imprisoned and tortured...he took over from a radical marxist brutal regime...so it's not like he took power from some nice people...not justifying the killings, but lets not compare him to stalin or hitler or castro...

it did pave the way however to the 1990 free democratic elections, as he stepped down peacefully...and a reduction in poverty from 48% to 20% over several years between 1988 - and '92 or so....so pinochet did step aside...

and I'd point out, even thru 1982, the state controlled more of the economy than it did when it was socialist...many of the actual reforms took place towards the end of pinochet's reign...so to claim it was a small gov't is a false claim..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Chile
  
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Re: Noam Chomsky on Russiagate - Its a bad joke
Reply #19 - Dec 6th, 2018 at 1:01pm
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petep wrote on Dec 6th, 2018 at 12:34pm:
so between 1973 and 1990 it's estimated that 3,000 people were killed by the pinochet dictatorship govt...1850 of these were killed during the first three months of the coup...though many political dissidents were imprisoned and tortured...he took over from a radical marxist brutal regime...so it's not like he took power from some nice people...not justifying the killings, but lets not compare him to stalin or hitler or castro...



I wouldn't try to compare him to Stalin or Hitler but I also think there is more to the story than those 3000 some odd killings. He is also said to have interned 80k people and tortured tends of thousands.

Quote:
it did pave the way however to the 1990 free democratic elections, as he stepped down peacefully...and a reduction in poverty from 48% to 20% over several years between 1988 - and '92 or so....so pinochet did step aside...

and I'd point out, even thru 1982, the state controlled more of the economy than it did when it was socialist...many of the actual reforms took place towards the end of pinochet's reign...so to claim it was a small gov't is a false claim..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Chile

His reforms started earlier than you suggest.

Quote:
The first reforms were implemented in three rounds – 1975–82, 1985–present, the first of which led to the crisis of 1982.


So yes, "after the catastrophic banking crisis of 1982 the state controlled more of the economy than it had under the previous socialist regime" but that's owing to the fact Pinochet bungled the Monetarist plan he was given by the Chicago Boys. They advocated for floating exchanges rates. He went with fixed. A crisis ensued and the state stepped in to mitigate it.

Pinochet preached a westernized small government free market vision and papered over the gaps with torture and helicopter drops. Yes, he was dealing with many challenges but I still stand by the claim that this is an example of a rather brutal small government styled regime.
  

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