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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Noam Chomsky on Russiagate - Its a bad joke (Read 632 times)
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Re: Noam Chomsky on Russiagate - Its a bad joke
Reply #20 - Dec 6th, 2018 at 7:41pm
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Fiddler wrote on Dec 6th, 2018 at 9:19am:
"selfish f*cks" eh??  ... .



Yes, you Marxist f*ckers are selfish.
  

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Re: Noam Chomsky on Russiagate - Its a bad joke
Reply #21 - Dec 6th, 2018 at 10:24pm
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Quote:
Also, Trump is not working to improve US ties with Russia.  Trump is working to improve Trump business.  Obama sanctioned Russia because of that meddling, and Trump undermined it.  Trump has no objections to Russian military adventurism.  Trump floats ideas like scrapping NATO, leaving the baltic states undefended, and cracking open the EU -- all of which are great big wins for Putin, and none of which advance US interests.


This is an extremely America-centric view of the situation vis-a-vis Russia.  The other view is not that Putin is being aggressive towards the West but that NATO, ever since the fall of the Soviet Union, has been aggressively pushing against Russia's borders, trying to bring all the states bordering Russia into NATO, with Ukraine being the last straw.

You see, the Russians have a long history of people invading them not only from the East (Mongols) but also from the West.

Way back in the 17th century the Poles pressed on Russia from the West, then I believe Sweden invaded Russia in the 18th century.  Of course in the 19th century Napoleon invaded and captured Moscow...and then the 20th century saw two German invasions in WWI and WWII, both very costly to Russia.

Russia has few natural barriers preventing an invasion from the West.  Really the only barrier they have is space, which is why they have traditionally sought, over the last few centuries, to put as much space between their enemies and Moscow as possible, and thus their sensitivity to NATO expanding East.

The Russians, now that they have thrown off communism, are once again a realistic people.  They don't buy that the West, as it likes to portray itself, is always good.  They know how many times they have been invaded in the past and are wary of the same thing happening again.

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He's improving our ties with Russia like Chamberlain was improving british ties with nazi Germany.


Please, get real, this is an absurd comparison.  Putin is simply trying to defend his nations borders.  Hitler actively sought to conquer all of Europe (at least) and exterminate entire races (after the Jews, Hitler was next going to exterminate the Slavs).

Putin is not Hitler.


« Last Edit: Dec 6th, 2018 at 10:30pm by Frank1 »  


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Re: Noam Chomsky on Russiagate - Its a bad joke
Reply #22 - Dec 7th, 2018 at 5:20am
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Putin is not Hitler, that's for sure, but Russian paranoia about 'encirclement' is now very stale.

Russia has never been invaded by a democracy, and never will be.

NATO and EU expansion hurt their pride more than their strategic interests - they felt through the post war era that they were pre-eminent in a sphere of influence; now it is obvious that they were reviled, hated, loathed and they still are.

Countries like Romania, Poland, Bulgaria are resolutely modeling themselves on Western modes rather than Russian.


This is why Russian energies are directed at projects seeking to undermine some of the basics of Western ideology - democracy being the biggie, but rule of law, human rights and (reasonably) straight business dealing too.

Russia has never been a force for good in the world. It isn't now. If they and China are hemmed in by democracies to which they are hostile, good; maybe that will nudge them in that direction too.
  

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Re: Noam Chomsky on Russiagate - Its a bad joke
Reply #23 - Dec 7th, 2018 at 7:57am
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Good post limey. People forget Russia is nine time zones. Very difficult to exercise control with an iron fist with their centralized structure. Anyone who has traveled there or has done work with people outside of their major cities will tell you it’s still very communist. Many of the old leaders and people in theirs 50s grew up under communism. It’s engrained in them. We had some developers visiting and they could not believe that people here can choose which college they want to attend and choose their course of study. When we said it was true they thought it was propaganda. Most there still see themselves as owned by the state.
  
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Re: Noam Chomsky on Russiagate - Its a bad joke
Reply #24 - Dec 7th, 2018 at 8:44am
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petep wrote on Dec 7th, 2018 at 7:57am:
Good post limey. People forget Russia is nine time zones. Very difficult to exercise control with an iron fist with their centralized structure. Anyone who has traveled there or has done work with people outside of their major cities will tell you it’s still very communist. Many of the old leaders and people in theirs 50s grew up under communism. It’s engrained in them. We had some developers visiting and they could not believe that people here can choose which college they want to attend and choose their course of study. When we said it was true they thought it was propaganda. Most there still see themselves as owned by the state.


That's not necessarily communism.

Russia has always been a top-down society, loooonnnngggg before the communists.
  


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Re: Noam Chomsky on Russiagate - Its a bad joke
Reply #25 - Dec 7th, 2018 at 9:58am
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Frank1 wrote on Dec 7th, 2018 at 8:44am:
That's not necessarily communism.

Russia has always been a top-down society, loooonnnngggg before the communists.


Not sure. Don’t doubt you. I’ve only met people who grew up under communism  not pre
  
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Re: Noam Chomsky on Russiagate - Its a bad joke
Reply #26 - Dec 7th, 2018 at 10:40am
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Frank1 wrote on Dec 6th, 2018 at 10:24pm:
Putin is simply trying to defend his nations borders.


The Russians have a long history of invading and occupying other countries.  They are by no means mired in some sort of ring-the-wagons defensive posture.  They invaded Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Finland, and Romania in WWII -- BEFORE the Germans attacked.

They have invaded Ukraine, Georgia, Chechnya, and of course Afghanistan.

They occupied half of Europe for decades, imposing communist rule, soviet primacy, and military possession, including countries that had nothing to do with invading them.

And Putin, like other dictators, has reshaped the government, the economy, and the media to perpetuate his presidency-for-life.  He has built a cult of personality, a loyal cadre of industrialists and goon squads, and a culture of fear and terror.

He's not Hitler (because who is?), but it's not for a lack of trying.
  

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Re: Noam Chomsky on Russiagate - Its a bad joke
Reply #27 - Dec 7th, 2018 at 10:43am
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petep wrote on Dec 7th, 2018 at 9:58am:
Not sure. Don’t doubt you. I’ve only met people who grew up under communism  not pre



Presumably that's 'cos anyone under 101 was born after the Revolution!
  

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Re: Noam Chomsky on Russiagate - Its a bad joke
Reply #28 - Dec 7th, 2018 at 12:04pm
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Limey. wrote on Dec 7th, 2018 at 10:43am:
Presumably that's 'cos anyone under 101 was born after the Revolution!


Yes. That’s my point.
  
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