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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Syria (Read 2,951 times)
Lomelis
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Re: Syria
Reply #40 - Jan 12th, 2019 at 7:31am
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*sigh* Deep state is simply the government doing what it does.

Deep state is the bureaucracy.

It's crappity smacking idiotic to think this is somehow different with Trump or Obama or whatever.

If you have a problem with the deep state doing what it does then you have a problem with government in general.

Welcome to the club.

The problem is most of the people complaining about the "deep state" want it to continue doing what it does most of the time.


  

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Wadsworth wrote on Feb 19th, 2019 at 9:18am:
Regulations are designed to protect the consumer and the worker.  If it doesn’t,it is not a regulation.



"Watched it.  A shotgun is for long ranged shooting.  That is why hunters like them.  An AR-15 is not.  That video was misleading.
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Limey.
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Re: Syria
Reply #41 - Jan 12th, 2019 at 7:57am
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Lomelis wrote on Jan 12th, 2019 at 7:31am:
*sigh* Deep state is simply the government doing what it does.

Deep state is the bureaucracy.

It's crappity smacking idiotic to think this is somehow different with Trump or Obama or whatever.

If you have a problem with the deep state doing what it does then you have a problem with government in general.

Welcome to the club.

The problem is most of the people complaining about the "deep state" want it to continue doing what it does most of the time.





Doesn't the US system change key Civil Service personnel as the administration changes, though?
  

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Queshank
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Re: Syria
Reply #42 - Jan 12th, 2019 at 10:52am
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Lomelis wrote on Jan 12th, 2019 at 7:31am:
*sigh* Deep state is simply the government doing what it does.

Deep state is the bureaucracy.

It's crappity smacking idiotic to think this is somehow different with Trump or Obama or whatever.

If you have a problem with the deep state doing what it does then you have a problem with government in general.

Welcome to the club.

The problem is most of the people complaining about the "deep state" want it to continue doing what it does most of the time.




The only one suggesting it's somehow different with Trump is you, Lomelis.

Queshank
  

The question isn't whether or not we're descended from monkeys.  The question is, when are we going to stop descending?
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Lomelis
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Re: Syria
Reply #43 - Jan 12th, 2019 at 1:29pm
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Queshank wrote on Jan 12th, 2019 at 10:52am:
The only one suggesting it's somehow different with Trump is you, Lomelis.

Queshank


Where in the world are you getting that from?

Oh thats right I attacked your messiah.
  

Ignorant Blessings from Wads:

Wadsworth wrote on Feb 19th, 2019 at 9:18am:
Regulations are designed to protect the consumer and the worker.  If it doesn’t,it is not a regulation.



"Watched it.  A shotgun is for long ranged shooting.  That is why hunters like them.  An AR-15 is not.  That video was misleading.
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Lomelis
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Re: Syria
Reply #44 - Jan 12th, 2019 at 1:32pm
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Limey. wrote on Jan 12th, 2019 at 7:57am:
Doesn't the US system change key Civil Service personnel as the administration changes, though?


Yes.

Some people cant accept that some "leaders" arent very good at doing their job.
  

Ignorant Blessings from Wads:

Wadsworth wrote on Feb 19th, 2019 at 9:18am:
Regulations are designed to protect the consumer and the worker.  If it doesn’t,it is not a regulation.



"Watched it.  A shotgun is for long ranged shooting.  That is why hunters like them.  An AR-15 is not.  That video was misleading.
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Limey.
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Re: Syria
Reply #45 - Jan 12th, 2019 at 2:28pm
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Limey. wrote on Jan 12th, 2019 at 7:13am:
I think you have a rosy tint to your shades.

America has a long, long history of subverting other nations, to the extent of replacing democratically elected governments by corruption, violence and murder, installing brutal dictators and arming death squads.


American government agencies have meddled in literally dozens of countries around the world.


If your remark about sacrificing citizens for the freedom of others refers to WW2, then, hmm, the British suffered more casualties from a much smaller population.



Why do you support withdrawal from Syria?
  

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Re: Syria
Reply #46 - Jan 12th, 2019 at 5:49pm
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Limey. wrote on Jan 12th, 2019 at 7:57am:
Doesn't the US system change key Civil Service personnel as the administration changes, though?

The political appointees change, and a lot of people (deputy undersecretaries, etc.) have resigned or were not retained in their positions. However, as an example, many of the key positions, including ambassadorships, in the State Department have not been filled. If anyone is performing those duties, it's an "acting" duty performed by someone in the actual Civil Service (the regular bureaucrats).

Furthermore, many of those appointees and bureaucrats share a general outlook on the U.S. role in the world, including many of the appointees serving, or who have served, in the current administration: Bolton, Mattis, McMaster, Pompeo, Tillerson, etc.

Assuming Trump wants to go in a new direction regarding foreign policy (whether he does or not is not very clear), he would need to appoint people who share that view and fill the vacancies which currently exist in the Defense and State Departments. He hasn't done that.
  
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Re: Syria
Reply #47 - Jan 12th, 2019 at 6:12pm
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Frank1 wrote on Jan 12th, 2019 at 4:39am:
I wouldn't call that imperialism, that movement was mostly driven by settlers.

Using the U.S. Army to conquer that territory was a conscious decision on the part of the government that was clearly determined to expand (Louisiana Purchase for example).

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Once again, Mexican-American War was very largely driven by a settlement movement beforehand with the gov't only intervening later.

No it wasn't. Read up on the origins of the Mexican-American War. Had nothing to do with settlers. Here's what Ulysses S. Grant wrote about it in his memoirs:

"For myself, I was bitterly opposed to the measure, and to this day regard the war, which resulted, as one of the most unjust ever waged by a stronger against a weaker nation. It was an instance of a republic following the bad example of European monarchies, in not considering justice in their desire to acquire additional territory." (Source)

Chapter 3 of his memoirs is actually a pretty good breakdown of our policy and aims at the time.

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Whatever happened before there is a very clear change in American policy after 1945.  Before that, our foreign wars were haphazard, after that there was a unified policy of promoting U.S. interests globally, and this is an important distinction.

We did have more global interests; that doesn't mean we weren't imperialist before 1945.

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If you want to call every single war that is not completely defensive in nature an act of "imperialism" than the word imperialism begins to lose its value, and practically everyone becomes an imperialist.

Where was this argument made? It wasn't.

But we clearly had imperial ambitions before 1945, and you can't consider the Mexican-American War, the Spanish-American War, "annexation" of Hawaii, or our repeated interventions in Latin America as anything but.
  
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Re: Syria
Reply #48 - Jan 13th, 2019 at 3:09am
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Demos wrote on Jan 12th, 2019 at 5:49pm:
The political appointees change, and a lot of people (deputy undersecretaries, etc.) have resigned or were not retained in their positions. However, as an example, many of the key positions, including ambassadorships, in the State Department have not been filled. If anyone is performing those duties, it's an "acting" duty performed by someone in the actual Civil Service (the regular bureaucrats).

Furthermore, many of those appointees and bureaucrats share a general outlook on the U.S. role in the world, including many of the appointees serving, or who have served, in the current administration: Bolton, Mattis, McMaster, Pompeo, Tillerson, etc.

Assuming Trump wants to go in a new direction regarding foreign policy (whether he does or not is not very clear), he would need to appoint people who share that view and fill the vacancies which currently exist in the Defense and State Departments. He hasn't done that.



Thanks.

That's quite an interesting difference from the British philosophy on how the machinery of administration interacts with the elected elements of Government.


In theory, our system allows deep, long experience in managing the functions of Government to be available to, and responsive to, newly elected politicians.

They are meant to impartially act on the instructions of the elected Ministers (actually, the Ministers are appointed to that role, but they are from the winning Party) regardless of the Civil Servants' own views.

This means that the Departments don't have any seismic shocks after a change of Government. It also means that any particularly zany ideas from a fresh new minister can be, er, managed, by those with long experience.

Those who don't appreciate this natural check on rash action refer to it, recently, as the 'deep State'. It used to be called the Establishment or just Civil Service inertia.


That's those who found themselves on the winning side and don't like the voice of experience gently hinting that radical changes need thinking through.

The losers usually vociferously support this checking of the rash action, until a few years later when they take Government and the roles reverse.


https://youtu.be/rYL3QHVuck


  

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Re: Syria
Reply #49 - Jan 13th, 2019 at 5:02am
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Limey. wrote on Jan 13th, 2019 at 3:09am:
Thanks.

That's quite an interesting difference from the British philosophy on how the machinery of administration interacts with the elected elements of Government.


In theory, our system allows deep, long experience in managing the functions of Government to be available to, and responsive to, newly elected politicians.

They are meant to impartially act on the instructions of the elected Ministers (actually, the Ministers are appointed to that role, but they are from the winning Party) regardless of the Civil Servants' own views.

This means that the Departments don't have any seismic shocks after a change of Government. It also means that any particularly zany ideas from a fresh new minister can be, er, managed, by those with long experience.

Those who don't appreciate this natural check on rash action refer to it, recently, as the 'deep State'. It used to be called the Establishment or just Civil Service inertia.


That's those who found themselves on the winning side and don't like the voice of experience gently hinting that radical changes need thinking through.

The losers usually vociferously support this checking of the rash action, until a few years later when they take Government and the roles reverse.


https://youtu.be/rYL3QHVuck




And ultimately if the new - radical - leadership wanted change from the status quo it can effectively do so with the proper leadership and supervision of the new agenda.  Of course there will be pushback and dragging of feet in many instances.  It wouldnt happen overnight.

But when it comes to the military that is a whole other animal. You cant quite just pull people out as quickly as you put them in but once that order is issued you can literally abandon a base within a matter of days if provided the proper resources.
  

Ignorant Blessings from Wads:

Wadsworth wrote on Feb 19th, 2019 at 9:18am:
Regulations are designed to protect the consumer and the worker.  If it doesn’t,it is not a regulation.



"Watched it.  A shotgun is for long ranged shooting.  That is why hunters like them.  An AR-15 is not.  That video was misleading.
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