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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Stumped!! (Read 2,784 times)
Seawolf
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Re: Stumped!!
Reply #30 - Mar 27th, 2019 at 11:16am
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Running Deer wrote on Mar 26th, 2019 at 4:55pm:
Seawolf illustrated my point nicely.  Jesus claims to be able to save from sin and judgment but not from Hell.

You seem to be incapable of reading and understanding scripture.  On top of that you respond to our conversation in weeks, not hours or days so I have no idea if you even read the scriptures I linked.  What you do demonstrate is your own inability to understand scripture.  You have made absurd claims I have consistently destroyed based on what the Bible says.  Hard to have any sort of discussions with you when your replies are few over time.
  

"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Seawolf
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Re: Stumped!!
Reply #31 - Mar 27th, 2019 at 11:19am
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Running Deer wrote on Mar 26th, 2019 at 4:55pm:
Seawolf illustrated my point nicely.  Jesus claims to be able to save from sin and judgment but not from Hell.

Judgement and hell are one in the same, you seem incapable of understanding this.  God's wrath will fall on those who refuse the prompting of the Holy Spirit, which the Bible refers to as blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

“Just as weeds are gathered up and burned in the fire so will it happen at the end of this world. The Son of Man will send out his angels and they will uproot from the kingdom everything that is spoiling it, and all those who live in defiance of its laws, and will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be tears and bitter regret.” (Matthew 13:24-43)

“If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life he was thrown into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:15)

I know what you are doing and it is a very common tactic by many here on this forum.  You are playing a word game, you think that if Jesus does not say hell, it can not be true, despite the verse right above these remarks about a lake of fire.  Would you feel better if I said "lake of fire" rather then hell?  Huh
« Last Edit: Mar 27th, 2019 at 12:40pm by Seawolf »  

"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Running Deer
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Re: Stumped!!
Reply #32 - Apr 1st, 2019 at 7:17pm
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Seawolf wrote on Mar 27th, 2019 at 11:19am:
Judgement and hell are one in the same


But they're not.  Your reading of the New Testament treats death, judgment, and hell as the same thing, when they aren't.  Moreover, you treat hades and gehenna as the same thing, and there's good reason not to.

By your reading, "judge not, lest ye be judged yourself" would be a threat of Hell.  That makes no sense.

Quote:
"Just as weeds are gathered up and burned in the fire so will it happen at the end of this world. The Son of Man will send out his angels and they will uproot from the kingdom everything that is spoiling it, and all those who live in defiance of its laws, and will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be tears and bitter regret." (Matthew 13:24-43)


Since the kingdom of heaven is within you, it makes no sense to treat this as a threat of eternal punishment.

Quote:
“If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life he was thrown into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:15)


Why would you interpret The Revelation literally about anything?  Do you think there is a literal, actual Beast with multiple heads and horns and crowns?  Of course not, it's a metaphor within an ecstatic vision.  Interpreting Revelation literally is crazy.

Quote:
I know what you are doing and it is a very common tactic by many here on this forum.  You are playing a word game, you think that if Jesus does not say hell, it can not be true


It's not a word game.  Jesus never said He can save anyone from Hell, and you can't even find verses that strongly imply it, despite page after page of Bible quotes.  When Jesus warned people about Hell, he didn't tell them to pray the Sinners' Prayer, he said to change your ways, e.g., "And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to go into hell."  Matthew 5:30, NRSV.
  

"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
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Re: Stumped!!
Reply #33 - Apr 1st, 2019 at 11:29pm
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One thing that can be agreed upon is that the contextualization of these verses as admonishments in these modern times underscores the irresponsibility and narcissism inherent in Evangelical Christianity. And so too does it demonstrate Evangelicalism's descent into materialism by being primarily a power structure and political gimmick, as opposed to a genuine, constructive spiritual force.

--De Santos!
  
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Seawolf
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Re: Stumped!!
Reply #34 - Apr 3rd, 2019 at 9:55pm
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Running Deer wrote on Apr 1st, 2019 at 7:17pm:
But they're not.  Your reading of the New Testament treats death, judgment, and hell as the same thing, when they aren't.  Moreover, you treat hades and gehenna as the same thing, and there's good reason not to.

By your reading, "judge not, lest ye be judged yourself" would be a threat of Hell.  That makes no sense.


Since the kingdom of heaven is within you, it makes no sense to treat this as a threat of eternal punishment.


Why would you interpret The Revelation literally about anything?  Do you think there is a literal, actual Beast with multiple heads and horns and crowns?  Of course not, it's a metaphor within an ecstatic vision.  Interpreting Revelation literally is crazy.


It's not a word game.  Jesus never said He can save anyone from Hell, and you can't even find verses that strongly imply it, despite page after page of Bible quotes.  When Jesus warned people about Hell, he didn't tell them to pray the Sinners' Prayer, he said to change your ways, e.g., "And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to go into hell."  Matthew 5:30, NRSV.

I have given you several quotes of Jesus being the savior and messiah.  It would appear you are going to simply out and out dismiss them rather then try and show how he is not.
  

"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Stumped!!
Reply #35 - Apr 5th, 2019 at 4:45pm
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De Santos wrote on Apr 1st, 2019 at 11:29pm:
One thing that can be agreed upon is that the contextualization of these verses as admonishments in these modern times underscores the irresponsibility and narcissism inherent in Evangelical Christianity. And so too does it demonstrate Evangelicalism's descent into materialism by being primarily a power structure and political gimmick, as opposed to a genuine, constructive spiritual force.

--De Santos!


Don't be so simplistic!
  

Queshank wrote on Oct 25th, 2018 at 9:13am:
FC,

I've been thinking about how I can respond conversationally without coming across as a total dick.

Queshank
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Running Deer
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Re: Stumped!!
Reply #36 - Apr 8th, 2019 at 6:41pm
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Seawolf wrote on Apr 3rd, 2019 at 9:55pm:
I have given you several quotes of Jesus being the savior and messiah.


You have, but Jesus never says he saves anyone from Hell.  From sin?  Sure, but not from Hell.

Quote:
It would appear you are going to simply out and out dismiss them rather then try and show how he is not.


You should do something wild and crazy.  Try reading my posts carefully and responding to their points.
  

"If cousins, I would much prefer to marry one my Neanderthal relatives than a screeching chimpanzee which might bite my face off as has happened recently. Of course, chimps are not even a human species so procreation between humans and chimps is out of the question." - joe_christian, on sex
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Seawolf
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Re: Stumped!!
Reply #37 - Apr 8th, 2019 at 10:15pm
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Running Deer wrote on Apr 8th, 2019 at 6:41pm:
You have, but Jesus never says he saves anyone from Hell.  From sin?  Sure, but not from Hell.


You should do something wild and crazy.  Try reading my posts carefully and responding to their points.
Actually you are playing silly word games and I have no time for the silliness. The Bible is very clear that he died for our sins.  You seem in denial that a righteous God would actually bring judgement upon those in sin.  Just as a Judge must pronounce judgement on those who break the law, God also will bring eternal judgement on those who live in sin.  The problem is you seem in denial that this will happen.  Which leads me to believe you are living in sin and you are attempting to downplay God's righteousness to justify your lifestyle.  Jesus is called the Savior, what then is he saving us from?  Ok, guess you and I will see in the end.  No use in this running in circles and going weeks between responses.  Enjoy!
« Last Edit: Apr 8th, 2019 at 10:21pm by Seawolf »  

"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Stumped!!
Reply #38 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 1:38pm
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From the Old Terstament:

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2).

The doctrine of eternal damnation (i.e., hell) goes far back to the core beliefs of ancient Judaism in which Jesus warned about numerous times in the NT. After the close of the Canon, the early church father taught about hell and there is 4000 years of hell doctrine.

The easiest way to avoid eternal condemnation is to repent of your sins to Christ and be born again in the spirit. Follow Christ, not the ways of the world. For the ways of the world are sinful and sin leads to eternal damnation.

What is hell like? I don't know. But its not worth finding out.
  

"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Cor. 3:17).
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Re: Stumped!!
Reply #39 - Apr 15th, 2019 at 1:48pm
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FEZZILLA wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 1:38pm:
From the Old Terstament:

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2).

The doctrine of eternal damnation (i.e., hell) goes far back to the core beliefs of ancient Judaism in which Jesus warned about numerous times in the NT. After the close of the Canon, the early church father taught about hell and there is 4000 years of hell doctrine.

The easiest way to avoid eternal condemnation is to repent of your sins to Christ and be born again in the spirit. Follow Christ, not the ways of the world. For the ways of the world are sinful and sin leads to eternal damnation.

What is hell like? I don't know. But its not worth finding out.


Do you ever read something fun?
  

Queshank wrote on Oct 25th, 2018 at 9:13am:
FC,

I've been thinking about how I can respond conversationally without coming across as a total dick.

Queshank
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