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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Do you want the military-industrial complex to disappear? (Read 735 times)
Mojo-Jojo
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Re: Do you want the military-industrial complex to disappear?
Reply #20 - Feb 12th, 2019 at 6:01pm
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Demos wrote on Feb 12th, 2019 at 1:55pm:


Heh, from the cited article...

Quote:
The Defense Department’s base budget for fiscal year 2020 is capped by law at $576 billion. The Trump administration is seeking roughly an additional $150 billion (possibly as much as $174 billion, which would bring the overall budget for defense to $750 billion) for the war fund, more commonly known as OCO, the sources tell Foreign Policy. Entire programs, such as the U.S. Army’s accounts for ammunition and training, will be moved to this war account, according to multiple sources.


So much for Trump breaking the wheel. :/

Heh, probably an accounting trick to get some of that wall money (from Mexico!).
  

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Queshank
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Re: Do you want the military-industrial complex to disappear?
Reply #21 - Feb 12th, 2019 at 6:47pm
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To the original post ...

No I don't want it to disappear.  I just want it to get the crappity smack out of the driver's seat on foreign policy.

Mojo-Jojo wrote on Feb 12th, 2019 at 6:01pm:
Heh, from the cited article...


So much for Trump breaking the wheel. :/

Heh, probably an accounting trick to get some of that wall money (from Mexico!).


I don't care if we spend 1 trillion dollars on our military.  If Trump wants to update "Speak softly and carry a big stick" with "Speak loudly and offensively and carry a big stick" I don't care.

Military and military spending is exponentially less important to me than military adventurism.  I realize it's a symbiotic relationship.  But I'm just not nearly as concerned about our military expenditures unless it's the lives of our servicemen.

And I'm especially okay with it if a very large portion of that money is going to the Space Force.  God I hate that name.  But I love that Trump is bringing back a focus on space.  One of the biggest disappointments of the Obama era was Obama defunding and pushing to privatize NASA in favor of expenditures like Obamacare that doomed the Democratic Party.

There will be life post Trump when we can dial it back.  But while Trump is in office pissing off the world, (or more accurately as long as our domestic media does everything they can to outrage the world based on contextual reframing of Trump's comments) perhaps the last signal we should be okay with sending is one of downsizing our military.

Queshank
  

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Re: Do you want the military-industrial complex to disappear?
Reply #22 - Feb 12th, 2019 at 7:04pm
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Back to this when I get back from class.  Wink
  
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Re: Do you want the military-industrial complex to disappear?
Reply #23 - Feb 12th, 2019 at 7:11pm
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patrick2 wrote on Feb 12th, 2019 at 3:09am:
Some time in the future, at Zeke's farm in Iowa:

"Jebediah - go get the shotgun! Just heard on the radio that Russia has fired hypersonic missiles at us!  They done picked the wrong fight!"



I'm really not sure how I feel about this.

On the one hand, it makes our country tons of money and keeps us on the bleeding edge of not just military technology, but technology in general. On the other, even if we spent half as much on our military, we would still have the most advanced military in the world, yet we could use that money to make American lives better.

It's a tough call.
  
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Re: Do you want the military-industrial complex to disappear?
Reply #24 - Feb 12th, 2019 at 10:12pm
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Queshank wrote on Feb 12th, 2019 at 6:47pm:
One of the biggest disappointments of the Obama era was Obama defunding and pushing to privatize NASA in favor of expenditures like Obamacare that doomed the Democratic Party...


Agree 100%.
  

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patrick2
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Re: Do you want the military-industrial complex to disappear?
Reply #25 - Feb 13th, 2019 at 6:20am
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Demos wrote on Feb 12th, 2019 at 12:06pm:
Seems like you don't really understand what Ike was talking about or the warning he was giving about the military-industrial complex:

"A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction.

Our military organization today bears little relation to that known by any of my predecessors in peace time, or indeed by the fighting men of World War II or Korea.

Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But now we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. We annually spend on military security more than the net income of all United State corporations.

This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence-economic, political, even spiritual-is felt in every city, every state house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes.
We should take nothing for granted only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together..."


Eisenhower was the original RINO.  His positions were very odd, even for his time, and are weird now.  He contradicts himself when he says "our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action".  What makes that possible?  CLASS???  THE MIL-I-TRA-Y IN-DUS-TRI-AL COM-PLEX!!  He was a leader in the military before WW2, and probably bears some of the responsibility for the ass-whipping given us for the first two years of the war by the axis.  Among the failures of his cohort of military leaders was their failure to grasp that battleships had been made obsolete by carriers, that the US was far behind in such infantry staples as battle tanks, that it was not till 1943 that the US came up with a fighter plane that could take on the Japanese Zero. 

His regretting that a "permanent" arms industry had to be created sounds like a sentiment from the 1700s.  After the initial catastrophic defeats suffered by an unprepared US in WW2, it should have been OBVIOUS to Eisenhower way back then, and CERTAINLY it should be now, that such a permanent industry is necessary.

The US used to have a habit of being unprepared for war:  the War of 1812, WW2, the Korean War.  US soldiers paid with their lives to hold the line until the dormant military-industrial complex could be ramped up.

Further, military technology, like all technology, changes at an extremely fast rate compared to Eisenhower's day.  The idea that the defense industry can just go to sleep between wars is absurd in the current era.
  
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Re: Do you want the military-industrial complex to disappear?
Reply #26 - Feb 13th, 2019 at 6:32am
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patrick2 wrote on Feb 12th, 2019 at 7:04pm:
Back to this when I get back from class.  Wink



Yeah, cause you're still learning Grin
  

All throughout our American history, world history, "ordinary people can do extraordinary things"


un·known quan·ti·ty
noun
a person or thing whose nature, value, or significance cannot be determined or is not yet known.
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Re: Do you want the military-industrial complex to disappear?
Reply #27 - Feb 13th, 2019 at 6:35am
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patrick2 wrote on Feb 12th, 2019 at 4:50am:
THEY ARE???  GOOD GRIEF - I MISSED THIS!  DID CONGRESS DECLARE WAR?    WAS THIS ON THE LATE NEWS???




ENEMY


Pat, How many Anti  Muslim threads have you started over the years?

You know the ones where they are evading the U.S.? Shocked
  

All throughout our American history, world history, "ordinary people can do extraordinary things"


un·known quan·ti·ty
noun
a person or thing whose nature, value, or significance cannot be determined or is not yet known.
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Demos
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Re: Do you want the military-industrial complex to disappear?
Reply #28 - Feb 13th, 2019 at 8:49am
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patrick2 wrote on Feb 13th, 2019 at 6:20am:
His regretting that a "permanent" arms industry had to be created sounds like a sentiment from the 1700s.  After the initial catastrophic defeats suffered by an unprepared US in WW2, it should have been OBVIOUS to Eisenhower way back then, and CERTAINLY it should be now, that such a permanent industry is necessary...

Further, military technology, like all technology, changes at an extremely fast rate compared to Eisenhower's day.  The idea that the defense industry can just go to sleep between wars is absurd in the current era.

Which is exactly what Eisenhower said in his farewell address:

"Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction...

But now we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions...

We recognize the imperative need for this development..."

Like I said, you don't understand what Ike was talking about or the specific warning. Even after it was italicized for you.

To summarize, Ike notes this is the "new normal," and that it was unprecedented in American history but now necessary. However, because it was so pervasive, we needed to be cautious about how much influence it was allowed to have on policy.
« Last Edit: Feb 13th, 2019 at 11:20am by Demos »  
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Re: Do you want the military-industrial complex to disappear?
Reply #29 - Feb 13th, 2019 at 8:58am
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Gnome De Plume wrote on Feb 12th, 2019 at 3:40am:
Our military? No. Our military all over the word? yes. We've been the lifeguard saving idiots, dictators and terrorists from drowning in the deep end for too long.


Thats about it.

We can have the means to defend ourselves, we don't have to use (or misuse) said means to police the world.
  


The 17th Century ~ The halfway point between the Middle Ages and Modernity
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