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Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HerePolitical Opinion Page - The Hot Seat › Do you want the military-industrial complex to disappear?
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Do you want the military-industrial complex to disappear? (Read 730 times)
patrick2
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Re: Do you want the military-industrial complex to disappear?
Reply #40 - Feb 13th, 2019 at 7:43pm
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Demos wrote on Feb 13th, 2019 at 12:19pm:
What were our aims when we invaded Afghanistan? Have those been achieved? If not, then we've lost. 


To keep Afghanistan from being taken over by the IFs.  Did we lose?  No.

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Do you really believe the Afghan government can hold the country without our presence/assistance? So far, they haven't been able to. The Taliban is gaining more and more ground against them. 


No, but what does that have to do with what I said?

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Does that mean we must maintain a permanent military presence in the Middle East and every where else they pop up (the Philippines, Indonesia, etc.)? Or are there other ways to combat terrorism?


No - the IFs are not likely to take over the Philippines etc.

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To the former, maybe; to the latter, no (or do you disagree). And since the answer are maybe and no, then why would we need to maintain a permanent military presence there which limits our ability to address other challenges? Is that the right strategy?


My strategy would be just sufficient forces to prevent an IF takeover.  As I've said here before, the idea of "winning" in the sense of overturning a state enemy like Germany in WW2 is inapplicable to non-state actors.  You never "win" the battle against mosquitoes - you swat them and use repellent.  You never "win"  the battle of staying clean - you take a shower every day.

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You missed Saudi Arabia's export of Wahhabism (such as setting up maddrassas in Pakistan and other places which fueled fundamentalism and nutured jihadists)? Missed their support for the Taliban?


Saudi Arabia the state hasn't done that - individual actors within SA have.

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If there is an effect on them, can they not address it? Must we subsidize their efforts to secure oil? Must we subsidize their adventurism (e.g., the French in Mali and Libya). Or should they develop their own capabilities and shoulder more of the burden for their own defense?


If they can't address it because of millennia-long european divisiveness, do we stand by and do nothing while they're intimidated, findlandized, and disconnected from us as allies?  Do you really think that the US can be totally indifferent to whatever happens beyond our borders, and it won't eventually end badly for us?
  
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Demos
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Re: Do you want the military-industrial complex to disappear?
Reply #41 - Feb 13th, 2019 at 9:11pm
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patrick2 wrote on Feb 13th, 2019 at 7:43pm:
To keep Afghanistan from being taken over by the IFs.  Did we lose?  No.

Have you looked at a map of who controls Afghanistan lately?

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No, but what does that have to do with what I said?

You asked if they've taken over. If you pay attention to what's going on there, you'll see that it's only a matter of time.

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No - the IFs are not likely to take over the Philippines etc.

You sure about that? Ok, let's say they don't control the entire Philippines. What if they gain control of one of the islands that make up the Philippines?

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My strategy would be just sufficient forces to prevent an IF takeover.

So a permanent military presence then. 

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Saudi Arabia the state hasn't done that - individual actors within SA have.

The Saudi government did do all of that. You can read the sources cited, but here's a tidbit from a 1998 article: "Saudi Arabia is one of three countries that has recognized the Taliban religious militia as the legitimate government in war-wracked Afghanistan." So, saying the Saudi state "hasn't done that" is either naive or ignorant.

I think you should also ask yourself why an authoritarian state like Saudi Arabia doesn't do more to stop so-called private funding of terrorist groups.

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If they can't address it because of millennia-long european divisiveness, do we stand by and do nothing while they're intimidated, findlandized, and disconnected from us as allies?

So, Islamists couldn't take over Philippines, but they could accomplish all of this to Europe. Ok.  Also couldn't help but notice that your non sequitur didn't really address the question.

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Do you really think that the US can be totally indifferent to whatever happens beyond our borders, and it won't eventually end badly for us?

We don't have to be indifferent. We also don't have to subsidize everyone else's aims. Our resources are not infinite. We have to prioritize our interests based on our ability to achieve them.
« Last Edit: Feb 13th, 2019 at 9:20pm by Demos »  
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patrick2
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Re: Do you want the military-industrial complex to disappear?
Reply #42 - Feb 13th, 2019 at 9:40pm
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Demos wrote on Feb 13th, 2019 at 9:11pm:
Have you looked at a map of who controls Afghanistan lately?


Do they control the government?  No - big difference.

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You asked if they've taken over. If you pay attention to what's going on there, you'll see that it's only a matter of time.


Thanks for your opinion.  Roll Eyes

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You sure about that? Ok, let's say they don't control the entire Philippines. What if they gain control of one of the islands that make up the Philippines?


They don't control the government in spite of decades of trying - big difference.

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So a permanent military presence then. 


Not necessarily - just as long as it's needed.  The world is always changing - for example there's growing domestic resistance to the government in Iran, which is probably the principle islamofascist state.  There's no telling how and when the world may change, with Arabs eventually tiring of living in medieval countries. 

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The Saudi government did do all of that. 


No they didn't, and lots of lazy writers conflate "Saudi Arabia" with individuals in Saudi Arabia. 

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I think you should also ask yourself why an authoritarian state like Saudi Arabia doesn't do more to stop so-called private funding of terrorist groups.


That's pretty obvious.  It's a sort of payoff to protect themselves.  They're hedging their bets.   To the same degree that the West abandons the fight against the IFs, they'll continue to allow individual Saudi Arabians to fund the IFs because they want to end up on the winning side.

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So, Islamists couldn't take over Philippines, but they could accomplish all of this to Europe. Ok.  Also couldn't help but notice that your non sequitur didn't really address the question.


Whaaaaaaaaaaaaatttttt???  Grin

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We don't have to be indifferent. We also don't have to subsidize everyone else's aims.


Straw man.

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Our resources are not infinite. We have to prioritize our interests based on our ability to achieve them.


AND ANNNNNNNNNNND how vital they are.
  
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Demos
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Re: Do you want the military-industrial complex to disappear?
Reply #43 - Feb 13th, 2019 at 9:47pm
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patrick2 wrote on Feb 13th, 2019 at 9:40pm:
Do they control the government?  No - big difference.

They govern large parts of the country right now; the most territory since 2001.

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Thanks for your opinion.

Yeah, mine and lots of others based on looking at the facts on the ground.

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They don't control the government in spite of decades of trying - big difference.

ISIS hasn't been in the Philippines for decades.

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Not necessarily - just as long as it's needed.

And that will be determined when? Are you assuming there will come a point when these groups no longer exist? 

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No they didn't, and lots of lazy writers conflate "Saudi Arabia" with individuals in Saudi Arabia.

Laziness would seem to be dismissing sources without reading them (such as completely ignoring how the Saudi state officially recognized and supported the Taliban). Again, I'll refer you to the sources cited above. There are also a lot of sources here. Instead of dismissing things out of hand, maybe read them.

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That's pretty obvious. It's a sort of payoff to protect themselves.  They're hedging their bets.   To the same degree that the West abandons the fight against the IFs, they'll continue to allow individual Saudi Arabians to fund the IFs because they want to end up on the winning side.

With friends like that...

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Whaaaaaaaaaaaaatttttt???

You're the one posting the non sequitur.

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Straw man.

Do you know what a straw man is? My own statement of my own views in response to your question isn't a straw man.
« Last Edit: Feb 13th, 2019 at 9:55pm by Demos »  
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patrick2
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Re: Do you want the military-industrial complex to disappear?
Reply #44 - Feb 13th, 2019 at 10:03pm
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Demos wrote on Feb 13th, 2019 at 9:47pm:
They govern large parts of the country right now; the most territory since 2001.


Don't control the government - big difference.

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Yeah, mine and lots of others based on looking at the facts on the ground.


Well, I thank the others too for their opinions.  Roll Eyes

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ISIS hasn't been in the Philippines for decades.


Didn't say they were - I said ISLAMOFASCISTS, of which there are many different groups.

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And that will be determined when? Are you assuming there will come a point when these groups no longer exist? 


Do all groups exist forever?

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With friends like that...


Saudis have done plenty to help us.  For a recent example, they joined in the fight against the Yemeni islamofascists, one of the most virulent groups, who have promised death to the US and Israel.

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You're the one posing the non sequitur.


Whaaaaaaaaaaaaattttttttt?????

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Do you know what a straw man is? My own statement of my own views in response to your question isn't a straw man.


No, you said we don't have to subsidize everyone else's aims.  The opinion part from you is we don't have to.  The straw man part is bringing up at all subsidizing everyone's aims, not something I advocated.

Get it Sparky?  Wink
  
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Re: Do you want the military-industrial complex to disappear?
Reply #45 - Feb 13th, 2019 at 11:22pm
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patrick2 wrote on Feb 12th, 2019 at 3:43am:
"Well, they sure's hell don't got my pitchfork!"


You may not believe this, but I have heard of possibly a march on Washington with pitchforks, warning them to leave out guns alone.

Cheesy
Smiley
  

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Demos
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Re: Do you want the military-industrial complex to disappear?
Reply #46 - Feb 13th, 2019 at 11:57pm
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patrick2 wrote on Feb 13th, 2019 at 10:03pm:
Don't control the government - big difference.

Yeah, they are the government for significant portions of the country.

And eventually, they'll be governing the entire country, because the Afghan government we're backing is not able to defeat the Taliban without our assistance.

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Didn't say they were - I said ISLAMOFASCISTS, of which there are many different groups.

The point still remains. With ISIS losing territory in the ME, you have fighters returning to their home countries or just to other countries to continue the fight. One of those places is the Philippines. It's certainly possible that they could control some territory there. So despite your best attempts to avoid it, the question remains, will we need a permanent military presence there? If we can't leave the ME, even though ISIS or AQ hold no territory, why wouldn't we need a permanent military presence in the Philippines similar to our involvement in the ME?

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Do all groups exist forever?

Terrorism exist in some form or another.

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Saudis have done plenty to help us.  For a recent example, they joined in the fight against the Yemeni islamofascists, one of the most virulent groups, who have promised death to the US and Israel.

Yes, the Saudi's Yemeni war, which allowed Iran to expand their influence in the country, has done virtually nothing to stop AQAP, ISIS or any other Islamist groups. And implicated our military in war crimes. Bang up job there.

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The straw man part is bringing up at all subsidizing everyone's aims, not something I advocated.

Didn't say it was. If you were actually following the conversation, the subsidizing of other people's aims, interest and defense is something I've brought up many times, not because you may think that, but because that's what we do, citing some specific examples.
« Last Edit: Feb 14th, 2019 at 1:03am by Demos »  
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