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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) "Single payer" health system - the great Engine of Death (Read 777 times)
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Re: "Single payer" health system - the great Engine of Death
Reply #20 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 1:51pm
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LadyBug wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 4:53am:
My most recent experience with our medical system: I have Medicare and a private supplemental insurance plan. I broke my shoulder and humerus right after Christmas. I was in and out of the emergency room within two hours; got an appointment with an orthopedic surgeon in five days; and a month later was scheduled for PT one day after I called them. All this cost me only nominal co-pays. I like our system; it works, and quite efficiently, in my experience.



Nasty injuries! Mrs. Limey broke her humerus in November - whilst demonstrating the Monkees' walk to our daughter - and says it was extraordinarily painful. I hope you got better quickly.


Mrs. Limey's treatment has been excellent, too, from A&E room through surgery, painkiller prescriptions and physio, she is pretty much 100% now.

I find it painful just to bang the elbow on a door frame or something, breaking that bone must be agony.
  

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Re: "Single payer" health system - the great Engine of Death
Reply #21 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 1:58pm
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patrick2 wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 1:06am:
Forbes Magazine on NHS (October 2018 article)


This August, a record number of Britons languished more than 12 hours in emergency rooms. In July, the share of cancer patients who waited more than two months to receive treatment soared.

The NHS is also short 42,000 nurses. In the second quarter alone, nurse vacancies increased by 17%. Meanwhile, in the United States, nearly all states will have a surplus of nurses by 2030.

The shortage of providers has resulted in longer wait times for patients. In May, 4.3 million people in the United Kingdom were on waiting lists for surgery, a 10-year high. Adjusting for population, that would be like having everyone in the state of Florida on waiting lists. Roughly 3,500 British patients have been on hospital waiting lists for more than a year.

More than one in five British cancer patients waits longer than two months to begin treatment after receiving a referral from a general practitioner. In Scotland, fewer than 80% of patients receive needed diagnostic tests -- endoscopies, MRIs, CT, scans and the like -- within three months.

These delays are deadly. An analysis that covered just half of England's hospitals found that almost 30,000 patients died in the past year while waiting for treatment -- an increase of 57% compared to 2013.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypipes/2018/10/01/u-k-s-healthcare-horror-stori...

So why is it that for most of the leading causes of death, mortality rates are higher in the U.S. than in comparable countries

https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/mortality-rates-u-s-compare...
  

[RWB wrote on Jan 12th, 2019 at 4:34pm:
And she was Supposably an English teacher  Smiley

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Re: "Single payer" health system - the great Engine of Death
Reply #22 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 2:09pm
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UK life expectancy is higher than the US, and the UK spends less than half per capita on healthcare than the US does.  No UK citizen has ever lost their insurance or gone bankrupt due to medical bills.

The US has waiting lists, too, but they're hidden.  People with bad or no insurance wait at home until their medical problems become an emergency, then they shamble to the emergency room.  The difference is that the UK counts their waits, and the US doesn't.

As a technical note, the UK state owns most of the medical facilities, and most of the health care workers (doctors, nurses, etc.) are employees of the state.  That is one way to do single-payer, but not the only way, and I don't see any prominent US politicians calling for the state to assume ownership of most healthcare facilities.  There's no USNHS coming, so far as I can tell.
  

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Re: "Single payer" health system - the great Engine of Death
Reply #23 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 2:50pm
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patrick2 wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 1:06am:
Forbes Magazine on NHS (October 2018 article)


This August, a record number of Britons languished more than 12 hours in emergency rooms. In July, the share of cancer patients who waited more than two months to receive treatment soared.

The NHS is also short 42,000 nurses. In the second quarter alone, nurse vacancies increased by 17%. Meanwhile, in the United States, nearly all states will have a surplus of nurses by 2030.

The shortage of providers has resulted in longer wait times for patients. In May, 4.3 million people in the United Kingdom were on waiting lists for surgery, a 10-year high. Adjusting for population, that would be like having everyone in the state of Florida on waiting lists. Roughly 3,500 British patients have been on hospital waiting lists for more than a year.

More than one in five British cancer patients waits longer than two months to begin treatment after receiving a referral from a general practitioner. In Scotland, fewer than 80% of patients receive needed diagnostic tests -- endoscopies, MRIs, CT, scans and the like -- within three months.

These delays are deadly. An analysis that covered just half of England's hospitals found that almost 30,000 patients died in the past year while waiting for treatment -- an increase of 57% compared to 2013.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypipes/2018/10/01/u-k-s-healthcare-horror-stori...


It shouldn't be all that surprising.  The price for this work is fixed by government.  This makes shortage or over-supply if that price is different than what the market would have provided.

Ulysses wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 1:55am:
Those figures do not agree with  historical data that shows Brits have twice as good health outcomes for 1/2 the cost for Americans.


They can if you don't make the mistake of assuming that health outcomes are driven solely by the speed at which treatment is rendered.
  
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Re: "Single payer" health system - the great Engine of Death
Reply #24 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 2:59pm
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Running Deer wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 2:09pm:
UK life expectancy is higher than the US, and the UK spends less than half per capita on healthcare than the US does.  No UK citizen has ever lost their insurance or gone bankrupt due to medical bills.

The US has waiting lists, too, but they're hidden.  People with bad or no insurance wait at home until their medical problems become an emergency, then they shamble to the emergency room.  The difference is that the UK counts their waits, and the US doesn't.

As a technical note, the UK state owns most of the medical facilities, and most of the health care workers (doctors, nurses, etc.) are employees of the state.  That is one way to do single-payer, but not the only way, and I don't see any prominent US politicians calling for the state to assume ownership of most healthcare facilities.  There's no USNHS coming, so far as I can tell.


Life expectancy is not a good metric for the quality of health care - e.g. US life expectancy has gone down recently because of suicide - hardly an indictment of the medical system.  Further, the US has an obesity epidemic - that causes all kinds of medical dangers which aren't the cause of the health system.  If two health systems are equal, but one deals with a healthier population, it will have a better outcome.  People who don't get insurance are to blame for their bad outcomes, not the system.   That's like if lots of people drive drunk and get in auto crashes, you say the US has bad highways.  The "free" medical care in the UK results in rationing, particularly of expensive procedures or drugs.   A lot of the outcomes difference is based on distorted statistics, infamously from the way infant mortality is counted.

Where would you rather be sick - the US or UK?  Get cancer in the UK, and they say "come back in 3 months, and then don't expect anything from us that is expensive."
  
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Re: "Single payer" health system - the great Engine of Death
Reply #25 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 3:03pm
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Cost of health care services continues to go up.

The solution? Increase the demand with single payer, I guess? Supply and demand concepts are outdated and likely the creation of old white male patriarchs.

Oh! And the state will be able to negotiate and therefore reduce costs!

Only with what are essentially price controls... Which will hamper innovation and make becoming a health care provider / supplier less desirable.

But then maybe the state can take over those industries as well??

I can see that this is definitely a good fix.
  

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Re: "Single payer" health system - the great Engine of Death
Reply #26 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 3:14pm
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The way that works now is that foreign single payer health systems demand, and get, big discounts from US pharmaceutical companies.  So US patients are subsidizing those systems with their high prices, and then to add insult to injury, the foreign systems brag that they've got lower costs!
  
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Re: "Single payer" health system - the great Engine of Death
Reply #27 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 3:17pm
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Buddy_Love wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 2:10am:
Little amusing story: A public facebook post from a friend about single payer a month or so ago. A right winger joins in and proceeds to tell us all her Canadian friends hate their healthcare.

So I ask her to tag these friends. She refuses. So I tag my Canadian friends. They proceed to lambast her. They tag their Canadian friends. In the end, we hear from a dozen actual real life Canadians talking about how much they love their healthcare and how they all feel sorry for us. Right winger just stops posting.

Moral of the story:

Do not believe the propaganda from right wingers in regards to single payer/UHC. It's only propaganda. It's all lies.


Oh yeah, it is all propaganda. Here is some more:

925 people per million die every year in Canada due to medical errors.
769 people per million die every year in the US due to medical errors.

https://nationalpost.com/health/inside-canadas-secret-world-of-medical-errors-th...
https://www.google.com/search?q=population+canada&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS748US748&oq=po...
https://hub.jhu.edu/2016/05/03/medical-errors-third-leading-cause-of-death/
https://www.google.com/search?q=us+population&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS748US748&oq=us+pop...

And most of those errors in Canada are hidden by the bureaucracy.
  


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Re: "Single payer" health system - the great Engine of Death
Reply #28 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 3:19pm
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When Canadians get seriously ill, a lot of them know what to do - head for the southern border and get treated in the US.  It's either that, or die on a waiting list.
  
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Re: "Single payer" health system - the great Engine of Death
Reply #29 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 3:20pm
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patrick2 wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 3:14pm:
The way that works now is that foreign single payer health systems demand, and get, big discounts from US pharmaceutical companies.  So US patients are subsidizing those systems with their high prices, and then to add insult to injury, the foreign systems brag that they've got lower costs!

There is truth to this, without question.
  

If FaceBook memes and twitter accounts can sway elections, then either accept it as the new reality or let's figure out a new form of government. Because democracy is therefore unfit in the modern age.
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