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Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HerePolitical Opinion Page - The Hot Seat › "Single payer" health system - the great Engine of Death
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) "Single payer" health system - the great Engine of Death (Read 926 times)
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Re: "Single payer" health system - the great Engine of Death
Reply #30 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 3:25pm
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Limey. wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 1:47pm:
That is exactly right; the Conservatives hate the NHS but can't outright say so because nobody would ever vote for them again.


So they bring in absurd 'market reforms' which hamper the system badly. whether this is due to ideological sabotage or a genuine belief that things will be better with business running healthcare (would anyone ask a doctor to run a logistics company?) I don't know.


No, we say so. Even Pelosi says so.
  


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Re: "Single payer" health system - the great Engine of Death
Reply #31 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 3:38pm
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Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 3:03pm:
Cost of health care services continues to go up.

The solution? Increase the demand with single payer, I guess?


The demand is already there, but not met because of inability to pay.

Demand for healthcare is limited to the demand for cures - people (apart from a few oddballs) don't use the medical system as a consumer choice.

If you undertake to provide healthcare at need, and to fund it, you can actually have a planned solution because you can predict the needs.



Quote:
Oh! And the state will be able to negotiate and therefore reduce costs!

Only with what are essentially price controls... Which will hamper innovation and make becoming a health care provider / supplier less desirable.



Will it? There are plenty of research and innovation streams out of the evil Empire of socialised medicine. Have an MRI recently? Invented by commie scum here in UK.




  

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Re: "Single payer" health system - the great Engine of Death
Reply #32 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 3:51pm
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Limey. wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 3:38pm:
The demand is already there, but not met because of inability to pay.

Demand for healthcare is limited to the demand for cures - people (apart from a few oddballs) don't use the medical system as a consumer choice.

Absolute nonsense.

The removal of per use cost from the equation makes doctor visits more likely for more minor injuries and illnesses that do not require a doctor.

Add in the medical establishment's insistence that every visit, regardless of how slight the problem, requires a discussion with an actual doctor.

Add in the limitation on the number of new doctors created every year. Limits created by the AMA and enforced with the help of the state.

And suddenly you have expanding demand with a stable supply. Costs go up, or cost controls are added in.

Limey. wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 3:38pm:
Will it? There are plenty of research and innovation streams out of the evil Empire of socialised medicine. Have an MRI recently? Invented by commie scum here in UK.

Publications and citations:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewherper/2011/03/23/the-most-innovative-countr...

Nobel prizes, R&D, and innovations:
https://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/05/business/05scene.html

I'm not saying innovation would end. That's not my argument.

But the broader facts back up my assertion that nationalizing these industries will hamper innovation.
  

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Re: "Single payer" health system - the great Engine of Death
Reply #33 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 3:58pm
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patrick2 wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 2:59pm:
Life expectancy is not a good metric for the quality of health care


Sure it is.  You don't like it because it says good things about national health care, not because you have any real opinions about health care statistics.  If the reverse were true - UK life expectancy a few years lower than ours - you'd be on here crowing about it non-stop.

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Further, the US has an obesity epidemic


So does the UK.  https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/10/britain-sixth-fattest-nation-world-r...

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Where would you rather be sick - the US or UK?


The United Kingdom, absolutely no question.
  

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Re: "Single payer" health system - the great Engine of Death
Reply #34 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 4:01pm
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patrick2 wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 3:14pm:
The way that works now is that foreign single payer health systems demand, and get, big discounts from US pharmaceutical companies.


We can do that here, too.
  

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Re: "Single payer" health system - the great Engine of Death
Reply #35 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 4:15pm
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Running Deer wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 3:58pm:
Sure it is.  You don't like it because it says good things about national health care, not because you have any real opinions about health care statistics.  If the reverse were true - UK life expectancy a few years lower than ours - you'd be on here crowing about it non-stop.


Nonsense, Sparky.  The "outcomes" depend on an extremely wide range of factors other than the healthcare system:   How unhealthy is the population because of their own preventable actions?  How much poverty is there?   Degree of gun violence?  Have many war veterans?  Is there widespread drug and alcohol use?  Are millions of sick illegal aliens flooding in?


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So does the UK.
  

US 12th globally, UK 33rd - no comparison.

https://obesity.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=006032


Quote:
The United Kingdom, absolutely no question.


Good luck, Sparks.  Roll Eyes  Make sure you don't need an operation in an area where the "limit" has already been reached in the rationed amount for that year - the infamous "postal code lottery".
  
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Re: "Single payer" health system - the great Engine of Death
Reply #36 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 4:18pm
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Running Deer wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 4:01pm:
We can do that here, too.


Yaaa, and then are scientists going to work long hours for a decade to develop new meds to cure disease?  Uhhhhh, noooo, they'll probably go into law where all the money is.

There's this amazing hallucination among leftwingers that if government took over everything, everything would be free.
  
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Re: "Single payer" health system - the great Engine of Death
Reply #37 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 4:40pm
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patrick2 wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 4:18pm:
Yaaa, and then are scientists going to work long hours for a decade to develop new meds to cure disease?  Uhhhhh, noooo, they'll probably go into law where all the money is.

There's this amazing hallucination among leftwingers that if government took over everything, everything would be free.


Yes, that's what it is. We want government to do everything so we can sit around and collect our cheques and enjoy the free stuff! It has to be that! It can't possibly be anything crazy like borrowing ideas from other countries that have measurably better results than our own system.

We just want free shit!  Roll Eyes
  

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Re: "Single payer" health system - the great Engine of Death
Reply #38 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 5:21pm
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Now, let's talk about why we can't have single payer and down't want single payer.

1st - Congress does not have the power to provide health care
It is popular to say that the Constitution allows for any type of welfare because it says "..provide for the general Welfare..." That phrase does appear twice in the Constitution, in the preamble and article 1, section 8. Unfortunately for those that adore single payer, the preamble does not give any of the branches of the government any power. Rather, it restricts the government to the goals set forth in the Preamble. In other words, the government can't do anything that is contrary to the general welfare of "ourselves and our prosperity".

Likewise, article 1, section 8 does not grant the legislative branch any power to provide for the general welfare of the people. Rather, the clause specifies that the general welfare is for the United States. The United States is the government. That is why they can also lay and collect taxes (et. al.) for the common defence and to pay the debt. It is all about the federal government or the United States.


2nd - Single Payer eliminates your right to live
I've talked about this a lot, but it needs to be repeated. Rights are held by the individual. If the government controls how, when, where, why, what and who gets health care, they control the primary tool for maintaining life and thus they control the right. That makes the right a privilege. As an example, if the only place you were allowed to go to church must be funded by the government, do you have the right to freely exercise your religion? Of course not. Same applies to health care and all other rights.


3rd - Single Payer violates the 14th amendment
The ruling in Roe v Wade was about privacy. It stated that government couldn't ban abortion because the enforcement would require all women that get an abortion to submit (via their doctor) medical records to the government for review. If a single payer system is put in place, the same privacy issue would exist. People would be required to submit every detail of their health to the government to determine if they are eligible for treatment. That is information that our SCOTUS has decided the government has no power to demand.
  


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Re: "Single payer" health system - the great Engine of Death
Reply #39 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 5:34pm
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Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 3:51pm:
Absolute nonsense.

The removal of per use cost from the equation makes doctor visits more likely for more minor injuries and illnesses that do not require a doctor.

you're questioning the ability of individuals to rationally decide the best course of action for their own health?


Actually,  most socialised medicine systems do indeed have a per use cost; in the UK it's not for medical face to face sessions because studies show reductions in early diagnosis and thus worse (& more expensive) outcomes.


We have a fixed charge for prescription drugs and devices,  which tends to keep people focussed on what they were told by the prescribing practitioner rather than acting like a child in a sweet shop.

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Add in the medical establishment's insistence that every visit, regardless of how slight the problem, requires a discussion with an actual doctor.



I can't speak for elsewhere but not here; medical practices are strenuous in their efforts to direct patients to pharmacists, physiotherapists, nurses, counsellors or whoever rather than having family doctors as the default first call.

Quote:
Add in the limitation on the number of new doctors created every year. Limits created by the AMA and enforced with the help of the state.

And suddenly you have expanding demand with a stable supply. Costs go up, or cost controls are added in.
[/why would a medical association wish worse outcomes for patients? Oh yes... restricted supply =higher prices.


Our BMA consistently pushes for increased doctor recruitment. They're not tainted by the profit motive,  you see.

Promotion is on medical skill.

[quote]
Publications and citations:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewherper/2011/03/23/the-most-innovative-countr...

Nobel prizes, R&D, and innovations:
https://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/05/business/05scene.html

I'm not saying innovation would end. That's not my argument.

But the broader facts back up my assertion that nationalizing these industries will hamper innovation.


And yet nobody is suggesting nationalising research.

In 1939-45 aircraft design leapt forward.

Other than the Soviets, all belligerent had private design and innovation organisations in aviation; there was one colossal customer and a genuine bigger picture (victory) than normal market conditions. 

Would there not be parallels with a medical profession on a mission to just make the nation well?


  

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