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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) "Single payer" health system - the great Engine of Death (Read 774 times)
Ulysses
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Re: "Single payer" health system - the great Engine of Death
Reply #40 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 6:19pm
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Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 3:51pm:
Absolute nonsense.

The removal of per use cost from the equation makes doctor visits more likely for more minor injuries and illnesses that do not require a doctor.

Add in the medical establishment's insistence that every visit, regardless of how slight the problem, requires a discussion with an actual doctor.

Add in the limitation on the number of new doctors created every year. Limits created by the AMA and enforced with the help of the state.

And suddenly you have expanding demand with a stable supply. Costs go up, or cost controls are added in.

Publications and citations:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewherper/2011/03/23/the-most-innovative-countr...

Nobel prizes, R&D, and innovations:
https://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/05/business/05scene.html

I'm not saying innovation would end. That's not my argument.

But the broader facts back up my assertion that nationalizing these industries will hamper innovation.


This flies in the face of hard data that shows that the UK NHS system covers patient care for 1/2 the cost of similar care in the USA, with twice as good outcomes.


  

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Re: "Single payer" health system - the great Engine of Death
Reply #41 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 6:33pm
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patrick2 wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 4:15pm:
The "outcomes" depend on an extremely wide range of factors other than the healthcare system


...which are not substantially different between the United Kingdom and the United States, and certainly nowhere near enough to explain why Americans pay literally double per capita for healthcare.  Nice percentage points of obesity doesn't double healthcare costs.
  

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Re: "Single payer" health system - the great Engine of Death
Reply #42 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 6:51pm
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Limey. wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 3:38pm:
The demand is already there, but not met because of inability to pay.


Then it is not demand. If I say i would buy a 200 foot yacht if I had the money, I am not demanding a 200 foot yacht.  I am only counted as part of demand if I actually am ready and willing to pay the prevailing price.

Quote:
Demand for healthcare is limited to the demand for cures - people (apart from a few oddballs) don't use the medical system as a consumer choice.


Can you explain why, when people in one state in the US were randomly selected to be provided with health insurance coverage by the state, their use of the emergency room went up?

Your statement here is simplistic at best.

Quote:
Will it? There are plenty of research and innovation streams out of the evil Empire of socialised medicine. Have an MRI recently? Invented by commie scum here in UK.






Anecdotal evidence of innovation and research does not rebut the claim that innovation is hampered by price controls.

Ulysses wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 6:19pm:
This flies in the face of hard data that shows that the UK NHS system covers patient care for 1/2 the cost of similar care in the USA, with twice as good outcomes.




Similar care?

People in the US receive 44% more MRIs than people in the UK.

https://international.commonwealthfund.org/stats/mri_exams/

And that is just one type of service.

Running Deer wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 6:33pm:
...which are not substantially different between the United Kingdom and the United States, and certainly nowhere near enough to explain why Americans pay literally double per capita for healthcare.  Nice percentage points of obesity doesn't double healthcare costs.


Nor has there been -- that I have seen -- any data indicating the massive difference in cost is due to the difference in funding mechanisms.  Do you have anything to cite in that regard?

Correlation is not causation.  And so many people want to treat it as though it is in support of government as the the universal payer for healthcare.
  
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Re: "Single payer" health system - the great Engine of Death
Reply #43 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 9:01pm
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Ulysses wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 6:19pm:
This flies in the face of hard data that shows that the UK NHS system covers patient care for 1/2 the cost of similar care in the USA, with twice as good outcomes.




Let's hear the proof for this "good outcomes" mantra.  Cite original source of the supposed data.  Make sure the definition of "outcome" is carefully defined.
  
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Re: "Single payer" health system - the great Engine of Death
Reply #44 - Mar 15th, 2019 at 6:18am
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Limey. wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 1:51pm:
Nasty injuries! Mrs. Limey broke her humerus in November - whilst demonstrating the Monkees' walk to our daughter - and says it was extraordinarily painful. I hope you got better quickly.


Mrs. Limey's treatment has been excellent, too, from A&E room through surgery, painkiller prescriptions and physio, she is pretty much 100% now.

I find it painful just to bang the elbow on a door frame or something, breaking that bone must be agony.


Thank you, Limey. I'm glad Mrs. Limey is back to normal; it gives me hope that I may get there, too, eventually.  Smiley

Just curious, though. Did she receive these services in the States or in Great Britain? From previous posts, I'm a bit confused about where you're living.
  
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Re: "Single payer" health system - the great Engine of Death
Reply #45 - Mar 15th, 2019 at 6:55am
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LadyBug wrote on Mar 15th, 2019 at 6:18am:
Thank you, Limey. I'm glad Mrs. Limey is back to normal; it gives me hope that I may get there, too, eventually.  Smiley

Just curious, though. Did she receive these services in the States or in Great Britain? From previous posts, I'm a bit confused about where you're living.



England. In a very good NHS hospital at no cost - except my taxes are around 34% of my income.

We only have the three taxes on individuals, County tax (around £900-£1100 per year), plus income tax (40% for those earning over £46k, 20% on earnings from IIRC £12k-£46k,  nothing under £12k, plus 10% on remaining income for 'national insurance', effectively just another income tax but without it you get reduced pension and NHS and other benefits rights as you haven't been working)

Oh and she had to pay for the car park too, the NHS uses that little income stream to buy champagne for the nurses.
  

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Re: "Single payer" health system - the great Engine of Death
Reply #46 - Mar 15th, 2019 at 7:23am
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Limey. wrote on Mar 15th, 2019 at 6:55am:
England. In a very good NHS hospital at no cost - except my taxes are around 34% of my income.

We only have the three taxes on individuals, County tax (around £900-£1100 per year), plus income tax (40% for those earning over £46k, 20% on earnings from IIRC £12k-£46k,  nothing under £12k, plus 10% on remaining income for 'national insurance', effectively just another income tax but without it you get reduced pension and NHS and other benefits rights as you haven't been working)

Oh and she had to pay for the car park too, the NHS uses that little income stream to buy champagne for the nurses.


Huh! So, are the reports about the ungodly long waits for treatments not true, partially true, or what?

Wow. That's a lot of taxes. But you seem to get a lot of benefits  for your pounds. The system seems to be working for you. Does it work as well for everyone? The reports say otherwise.  Undecided

Nurses are very special people and deserve special treats, right?  Smiley
  
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Re: "Single payer" health system - the great Engine of Death
Reply #47 - Mar 15th, 2019 at 7:42am
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Running Deer wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 6:33pm:
...which are not substantially different between the United Kingdom and the United States, and certainly nowhere near enough to explain why Americans pay literally double per capita for healthcare.  Nice percentage points of obesity doesn't double healthcare costs.

There are some very significant differences.

Such as population density, which is about 8 times higher in the UK than in the US.

Population density will significantly impact cost of services such as health care, public transportation (which is why trains make so much more sense in Europe than they do in the states), postal services, etc.

Add in the cartel-enforced limitation on the number of doctors and hospitals and hospital beds, the separation of consumer from direct costs of treatment which occurred during the wage-freeze era around WWII, the wealth of the United States, and you start getting a picture of why the US spends a lot more than other countries per capita on health care.
  

If FaceBook memes and twitter accounts can sway elections, then either accept it as the new reality or let's figure out a new form of government. Because democracy is therefore unfit in the modern age.
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Re: "Single payer" health system - the great Engine of Death
Reply #48 - Mar 15th, 2019 at 8:27am
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LadyBug wrote on Mar 15th, 2019 at 7:23am:
Huh! So, are the reports about the ungodly long waits for treatments not true, partially true, or what?

Wow. That's a lot of taxes. But you seem to get a lot of benefits  for your pounds. The system seems to be working for you. Does it work as well for everyone? The reports say otherwise.  Undecided

Nurses are very special people and deserve special treats, right?  Smiley



It's a large, complex system and inevitably there are problems; some of them serious ones.

In theory, the whole NHS is as good as it is in my city, which is very, very good indeed.

However, outside pressures and the lag between change and response means that some places have problems; also, some central decisions have negative consequences.

An example of the first would be a London hospital, where utterly insane house prices mean that the hospital simply cannot recruit. Nurses, support workers, even senior doctors find that they just can't afford to live close enough to commute.

The NHS used to have its own accommodation for staff, either as part of the contract or at very low rents, but Government policy has been to privatise and indeed sell off these assets - that's an example of central decisions that have negative consequences.

I personally have a persistent cough; I went to my GP (family doctor) at 0830 Friday last, had an xray in the hospital at 1400, and a consultation about it (nothing serious) on Tuesday at 1000.

Both our children were born, with great difficulty and all sorts of problems, in NHS units and they were magnificent.

Yes there are problems, different from the ones in fully private/for profit healthcare systems like yours.

When we have these threads, the idealogues like to bring up horror stories from the NHS, which are never going to be impossible to find.

I could bring up horror stories from American healthcare. Do those stories necessarily indicate failing systems because of systemic failure, or failures of systems due to error in application?

I hear Americans say 'I don't want the Government between me and my doctor', when discussing the British NHS. That is a fundamental misunderstanding of the NHS; it isn't like that at all, truly it isn't.

I wouldn't like an accountant or an insurance agent between me and my doctor - is that a misunderstanding of the American system on my part?
  

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Re: "Single payer" health system - the great Engine of Death
Reply #49 - Mar 15th, 2019 at 1:15pm
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Limey. wrote on Mar 15th, 2019 at 8:27am:
It's a large, complex system and inevitably there are problems; some of them serious ones.

In theory, the whole NHS is as good as it is in my city, which is very, very good indeed.

However, outside pressures and the lag between change and response means that some places have problems; also, some central decisions have negative consequences.

An example of the first would be a London hospital, where utterly insane house prices mean that the hospital simply cannot recruit. Nurses, support workers, even senior doctors find that they just can't afford to live close enough to commute.

The NHS used to have its own accommodation for staff, either as part of the contract or at very low rents, but Government policy has been to privatise and indeed sell off these assets - that's an example of central decisions that have negative consequences.

I personally have a persistent cough; I went to my GP (family doctor) at 0830 Friday last, had an xray in the hospital at 1400, and a consultation about it (nothing serious) on Tuesday at 1000.

Both our children were born, with great difficulty and all sorts of problems, in NHS units and they were magnificent.

Yes there are problems, different from the ones in fully private/for profit healthcare systems like yours.

When we have these threads, the idealogues like to bring up horror stories from the NHS, which are never going to be impossible to find.

I could bring up horror stories from American healthcare. Do those stories necessarily indicate failing systems because of systemic failure, or failures of systems due to error in application?

I hear Americans say 'I don't want the Government between me and my doctor', when discussing the British NHS. That is a fundamental misunderstanding of the NHS; it isn't like that at all, truly it isn't.

I wouldn't like an accountant or an insurance agent between me and my doctor - is that a misunderstanding of the American system on my part?


I'm thinking now that there are no perfect systems for health care. Mine works well for me; yours works well for you. But in both cases, there are those for whom neither current system works well. And that's the problem.

Thanks so much for your honest and unemotional responses. You're a gentleman and I for one am really glad you're here.  Smiley

 
  
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