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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Do Immigrants Use More Forms Of Welfare Than Natives Do? (Read 771 times)
TowardLiberty
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Re: Do Immigrants Use More Forms Of Welfare Than Natives Do?
Reply #10 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 5:05pm
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KSU_Aviator wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 5:04pm:
Yes, but does that offset the degradation of wages? Unlikely.

That's a myth.

  

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Arete
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Re: Do Immigrants Use More Forms Of Welfare Than Natives Do?
Reply #11 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 5:13pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 4:48pm:
That organization (CIS) is known for using questionable and biased methods.

https://www.cato.org/blog/center-immigration-studies-exaggerates-immigrant-welfa...


The CIS says otherwise about the methodology.

This report examines welfare use for households headed by immigrants and natives based on the Census Bureau's Survey of Income and Program Participation (SIPP). Because of the survey's complexity, most researchers have relied on other sources of data to examine immigrant and native welfare use. However, there is widespread agreement that the SIPP provides the most accurate picture of welfare use of any Census Bureau survey

Methodology





  
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TowardLiberty
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Re: Do Immigrants Use More Forms Of Welfare Than Natives Do?
Reply #12 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 5:27pm
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Arete wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 5:13pm:
The CIS says otherwise about the methodology.

This report examines welfare use for households headed by immigrants and natives based on the Census Bureau's Survey of Income and Program Participation (SIPP). Because of the survey's complexity, most researchers have relied on other sources of data to examine immigrant and native welfare use. However, there is widespread agreement that the SIPP provides the most accurate picture of welfare use of any Census Bureau survey

Methodology

That doesn't answer the criticism.
  

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Re: Do Immigrants Use More Forms Of Welfare Than Natives Do?
Reply #13 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 5:31pm
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CIS has no credibility.

Quote:
Founded in 1985 by John Tanton, the Center for Immigration Studies (CIS) has gone on to become the go-to think tank for the anti-immigrant movement with its reports and staffers often cited by media and anti-immigrant politicians. CIS’s much-touted tagline is “low immigration, pro-immigrant,” but the organization has a decades-long history of circulating racist writers, while also associating with white nationalists.

CIS reports have been widely criticized and debunked by groups such as the Immigration Policy Center and the CATO Institute. Alex Nowasteh, an Immigration Policy Analyst at CATO said in early 2017, "Oh, I'm convinced that [CIS executive director Mark Krikorian is] wrong about all the facts and issues. They're wrong about the impact of immigrants on the U.S. economy and on U.S. society.” Speaking about CIS to Univision in August of 2017, Illinois Rep. Luis Gutierrez stated, "Their research is always questionable because they torture the data to make it arrive at the conclusion they desire, which is that immigrants are criminals and a burden on the U.S. and our economy. It is the worst kind of deception, but politicians, the conservative media and some Americans eat it up because it always looks somewhat legitimate at first glance.
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/center-immigration...
  

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Re: Do Immigrants Use More Forms Of Welfare Than Natives Do?
Reply #14 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 5:35pm
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This discussion is humorous. on one hand we have a study by the CIS, The Center for Immigration Studies is an independent, non-partisan, non-profit, research organization. Since our founding in 1985 by Otis Graham Jr., we have pursued a single mission – providing immigration policymakers, the academic community, news media, and concerned citizens with reliable information about the social, economic, environmental, security, and fiscal consequences of legal and illegal immigration into the United States.

On the other.

The Cato Institute is an American libertarian think tank headquartered in Washington, D.C. It was founded as the Charles Koch Foundation in 1974 by Ed Crane, Murray Rothbard, and Charles Koch.

Who is to say which study uses the correct methodology and does it matter?

These studies are like polls made to say whatever one wants it to. Roll Eyes One study will insist theirs is correct and accurate, the other will do likewise.
  
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KSU_Aviator
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Re: Do Immigrants Use More Forms Of Welfare Than Natives Do?
Reply #15 - Mar 14th, 2019 at 6:50pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 5:05pm:
That's a myth.



Not really. It's supply and demand. Illegal immigrants aren't rocket scientists. They are laborers that work in agriculture, construction and other low skill labor. More supply equals lower price.

Quote:
https://www.usccr.gov/pubs/docs/IllegImmig_10-14-10_430pm.pdf

V. Conclusions
Again, I am not here to promote or comment on any specific policy. However, the results
from our research lead to three conclusions that we hope will be useful for the policy
discussion:
Wages will be higher in the absence of undocumented workers.
Employment will not necessarily be higher, and may even be lower, in the absence of
undocumented workers.
And, any effective policy that reduces or eliminates workers‘ limited employment and
grievance opportunities (which would include somehow legitimizing undocumented
workers) will lead to higher wages for all workers, on average.

  


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TowardLiberty
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Re: Do Immigrants Use More Forms Of Welfare Than Natives Do?
Reply #16 - Mar 15th, 2019 at 12:42am
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KSU_Aviator wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 6:50pm:
Not really. It's supply and demand. Illegal immigrants aren't rocket scientists. They are laborers that work in agriculture, construction and other low skill labor. More supply equals lower price.


You're holding all things equal. That's the "fixed-pie" fallacy.

When you add more people in an economy you also increase the demand for goods and services. That leads to economic growth and higher wages.

When immigrants enter our workforce, they complement our native workforce, and we all benefit.
  

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Re: Do Immigrants Use More Forms Of Welfare Than Natives Do?
Reply #17 - Mar 15th, 2019 at 12:43am
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Marvin wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 5:35pm:
This discussion is humorous. on one hand we have a study by the CIS, The Center for Immigration Studies is an independent, non-partisan, non-profit, research organization. Since our founding in 1985 by Otis Graham Jr., we have pursued a single mission – providing immigration policymakers, the academic community, news media, and concerned citizens with reliable information about the social, economic, environmental, security, and fiscal consequences of legal and illegal immigration into the United States.

On the other.

The Cato Institute is an American libertarian think tank headquartered in Washington, D.C. It was founded as the Charles Koch Foundation in 1974 by Ed Crane, Murray Rothbard, and Charles Koch.

Who is to say which study uses the correct methodology and does it matter?

These studies are like polls made to say whatever one wants it to. Roll Eyes One study will insist theirs is correct and accurate, the other will do likewise.

You either have a response to the criticisms of their methodology, or you don't.

Whataboutery will not suffice.
  

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Re: Do Immigrants Use More Forms Of Welfare Than Natives Do?
Reply #18 - Mar 15th, 2019 at 1:45am
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Ulysses wrote on Mar 14th, 2019 at 4:55pm:
Objective study states the immigrants, legal and not legal, add more to the economy than they drain.

Likely that is in part because if they work here, they pay taxes: payroll, income, sales, etc. But if they are illegal they don't get a tax refund, nor do they get the benefits from payroll taxation. So that alone is a net gain over actual citizens.


Completely false - they cost much more in taxes than they pay:

From FAIR:


The staggering total costs of illegal immigrants and their children outweigh the taxes paid to federal and state governments by a ratio of roughly 7 to 1, with costs at nearly $135 billion compared to tax revenues at nearly $19 billion.


https://www.irli.org/single-post/2017/09/27/New-FAIR-Study-Illegal-Immigration-C...

Quote:
Plus they contribute labor to help the economy, usually for very low wages.


They contribute to the wealth of the owners of labor-intensive businesses, not "the economy".  At the same time, they lower the wages of Americans on the low end of the economic scale, put them out of work, and increase the welfare costs for Americans.
  
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Arete
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Re: Do Immigrants Use More Forms Of Welfare Than Natives Do?
Reply #19 - Mar 15th, 2019 at 3:56am
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TowardLiberty wrote on Mar 15th, 2019 at 12:43am:
You either have a response to the criticisms of their methodology, or you don't.

Whataboutery will not suffice.


You give your opinion that your source is better and you allude to the parameters they use as well as why Cato thinks their methodology is better.

Marvin does exactly the same and gives the parameters the CIS used and quotes why they feel theirs is a more accurate assessment.

Then you follow up by insisting the libertarian leaning Cato is more accurate all while not providing any basis other than your opinion to back that insistence up. Both explained why they felt their methods were better than the others'.

Cato says their methodology is more accurate and they state why. Likewise CIS does they same. You flippantly choose one over the other and then act indignant that only Cato can be correct. Could it be that it had more to do with them producing a result that you approve of in addition to Cato's libertarian lean?

I also don't see you providing any comparison of the two methodologies other than quoting Cato's and insisting that theirs is more accurate. Yet you demand that Marvin do so on behalf of CIS.

Two studies, using differing methodology, producing different results. Both groups insisting their methodologies are best. Both explaining why they feel their methods are better yet you unequivocally insist one is better than the other. That based solely on because you say so.

Either you can specifically prove one is better than the other or you can not. Clearly at this point you can not and there's no doubt as well that in the community of those carrying out these types of  studies there will be those split on who provided the better and more accurate study. Or are you going to deny that as well simply because you say so?

It is a study not an exact science.

I believe there is a post here that compares polls and studies and how depending on methodology one can make the study or poll conclude what they wish it to by using different methodologies.


Stunning isn't it that two studies can produce different results? Roll Eyes

Quote:
Whataboutery Because I say so will not suffice



Quote:
You either have a response to the criticisms of their methodology, or you don't.


By posting a link to of all places the Southern Poverty Law Center you somehow think that automatically discounts CIS? Roll Eyes


The SPLC's listings have also been the subject of criticism from others, who argue that some of the SPLC's listings are overbroad, politically motivated, or unwarranted. They are often cited in academic and media coverage of such groups and related issues.

The SPLC's identification and listings of hate groups and extremists has been the subject of controversy. Critics of the SPLC say that it chooses its causes with funding and donations in mind, and argue[citation needed] that people and groups designated as 'hate groups' are often targeted by protests that prevent them from speaking.

In 2018, David A. Graham wrote in The Atlantic that while criticism of the SPLC had long existed, the sources of such criticism have expanded recently to include "sympathetic observers and fellow researchers on hate groups" concerned about the organization "mixing its research and activist strains.
« Last Edit: Mar 15th, 2019 at 4:55am by Arete »  
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