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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Trump Oblivious To How Unpopular He Is (Read 871 times)
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Re: Trump Oblivious To How Unpopular He Is
Reply #20 - Apr 14th, 2019 at 1:33am
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Ulysses wrote on Apr 14th, 2019 at 1:19am:
That would probably depend on the spin you give to "what will happen... with medicare for all"... If you were honest, you'd tell them that if it worked as well as the NHS in England, they'd get twice as good medical outcomes for one half the cost. If  you were not honest, you'd start blathering about "death panels".

Your choice. Your polling is as good, or as bad, as the way you ask your questions.



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No. You would never put your loved ones on the NHS.
  

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Re: Trump Oblivious To How Unpopular He Is
Reply #21 - Apr 14th, 2019 at 1:49am
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Ulysses wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 2:53am:
See Shit For Brains you and Trump have something in common
  

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Re: Trump Oblivious To How Unpopular He Is
Reply #22 - Apr 14th, 2019 at 1:56am
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RWB wrote on Apr 14th, 2019 at 1:49am:
See Shit For Brains you and Trump have something in common


Oh, go soak your head.

  

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Re: Trump Oblivious To How Unpopular He Is
Reply #23 - Apr 14th, 2019 at 4:45am
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Trump is the most popular president in history and gets all the biggest rallies and inauguration crowds. Not to mention the biggest landslide victory ever!
  
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Re: Trump Oblivious To How Unpopular He Is
Reply #24 - Apr 14th, 2019 at 7:12am
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atreyu wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 9:01am:
Trump is destroying Trump, the liberal news media has nothing to do with it.



Grin  Grin  Grin    I don't know if your post is meant to be funny or not, but it is  funny.   Trump is definitely not being destroyed.   The socialist dems would like to believe that, and some of them probably do, but it isn't happening.  People like that he believes in our Republic and is fighting becoming a socialist nation which means a failing nation.  It will not happen on his watch.
  
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Re: Trump Oblivious To How Unpopular He Is
Reply #25 - Apr 14th, 2019 at 11:39am
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Ulysses wrote on Apr 14th, 2019 at 1:19am:
That would probably depend on the spin you give to "what will happen... with medicare for all"... If you were honest, you'd tell them that if it worked as well as the NHS in England, they'd get twice as good medical outcomes for one half the cost.


That isn't honest, that is just your side's version of "muh death panels".

But you don't have to say anything about death panels to cause support for "Medicare for All" to dry up.

"But the more revealing part of the survey, I think, comes from the questions focused on the costs of single payer, all of which caused support for Medicare for All to drop below 40 percent. Told that it would eliminate private health insurance and require people to pay more in taxes, for example, support fell to 37 percent. Told that it would cause some medical treatments and tests to be delayed, support dropped even further, to 26 percent."

-- https://reason.com/2019/01/24/new-poll-shows-medicare-for-all-is-popul/

When you tell people they will lose their private insurance and pay higher taxes, support drops dramatically.

___

As far as the OP...all through the buildup to the 2016 election we were constantly told how unpopular Trump was, Clinton was almost certainly going to win, etc.  Until election night showed that to be wrong.   Trump has a lot of support.  And he has even more support than polls will show due to shy Trump voters.  2016 showed us that.
  
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Re: Trump Oblivious To How Unpopular He Is
Reply #26 - Apr 14th, 2019 at 12:04pm
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AFAIK, there are various Medicare for All proposals, and they don't all propose eliminating private health insurance. In fact I don't know of any proposals that say that. Look at the NHS in the UK: it doesn't eliminate private health insurance, does it? You can still get extra private health insurance if that's what you want, but it won't lower that portion of your taxes that support a single payer system.

The canard about tests and procedural delays? That has been dismissed by someone who should know, our own Limey person.

Costs? Well, you need to remind those polled of the much higher costs of our current health care system, which not only costs twice as much as the NHS, but delivers half as many good medical outcomes. And you need to remind them that the higher taxes will actually represent a DROP in medical costs for most people. Of course nobody likes taxes, but it's a con job to cloak alleged higher costs of single payer/universal health care with the "TAXES!" meme when in fact it will result in lower overall costs for most people, and better overall health.

But I guess I'm not surprised to see you latch onto misleading memes like you have. It's predictable. Preserve an inefficient, inadequate system like we have, rather than embrace meaningful, effective change.


  

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Re: Trump Oblivious To How Unpopular He Is
Reply #27 - Apr 14th, 2019 at 12:13pm
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Ulysses wrote on Apr 14th, 2019 at 12:04pm:
AFAIK, there are various Medicare for All proposals, and they don't all propose eliminating private health insurance. In fact I don't know of any proposals that say that.


I think it is more about how it "effectively" eliminates private insurance by eliminating any need for it.  At least one proposal calls for banning coverage that covers the same things as the national plan.

But you don't need to ban private insurance so long as you make it completely, financially, inefficient to carry it by forcing everyone to pay for and carry other coverage, ie, the government plan.

Quote:
Look at the NHS in the UK: it doesn't eliminate private health insurance, does it? You can still get extra private health insurance if that's what you want, but it won't lower that portion of your taxes that support a single payer system.


The point is that almost all employers would stop providing private coverage and the individual market for private coverage would probably shrink to next to nothing.

Quote:
The canard about tests and procedural delays? That has been dismissed by someone who should know, our own Limey person.


Ignore the part about delayed procedures, and the support is still only 37%.

Quote:
Costs? Well, you need to remind those polled of the much higher costs of our current health care system, which not only costs twice as much as the NHS, but delivers half as many good medical outcomes. And you need to remind them that the higher taxes will actually represent a DROP in medical costs for most people. Of course nobody likes taxes, but it's a con job to cloak alleged higher costs of single payer/universal health care with the "TAXES!" meme when in fact it will result in lower overall costs for most people, and better overall health.


Support this.

Quote:
But I guess I'm not surprised to see you latch onto misleading memes like you have. It's predictable. Preserve an inefficient, inadequate system like we have, rather than embrace meaningful, effective change.


Anger about the unpopularity of Medicare for all is no reason to start throwing around ad hominem attacks.
  
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Re: Trump Oblivious To How Unpopular He Is
Reply #28 - Apr 14th, 2019 at 1:36pm
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wyattstorch2004 wrote on Apr 14th, 2019 at 12:13pm:
I think it is more about how it "effectively" eliminates private insurance by eliminating any need for it.  At least one proposal calls for banning coverage that covers the same things as the national plan.

But you don't need to ban private insurance so long as you make it completely, financially, inefficient to carry it by forcing everyone to pay for and carry other coverage, ie, the government plan.


The point is that almost all employers would stop providing private coverage and the individual market for private coverage would probably shrink to next to nothing.


Ignore the part about delayed procedures, and the support is still only 37%.


Support this.


Anger about the unpopularity of Medicare for all is no reason to start throwing around ad hominem attacks.


Saying I'm not surprised by your predictable use of misleading memes, and desire to stay with an inefficient and unfair distribution of healthcare is hardly an ad hominem attack.

Yes, all would be taxed - proportionately as in the UK - for a single payer system.

Yes, there are multiple proposals on the table, and taking a questionable part of one proposal and damning all proposals with it is hardly intellectually honest.

As for supporting the fact that the NHS provides health care outcomes that are twice as good, and cost half as much, as in the USA, across identical demographics, I have already done that on LNF. Go fish.

  

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Re: Trump Oblivious To How Unpopular He Is
Reply #29 - Apr 14th, 2019 at 2:02pm
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Ulysses wrote on Apr 14th, 2019 at 1:36pm:
Saying I'm not surprised by your predictable use of misleading memes, and desire to stay with an inefficient and unfair distribution of healthcare is hardly an ad hominem attack.


Of course it is.  You are attacking me, the person, rather than countering the argument.  It is quintessentially ad hominem.

Quote:
Yes, all would be taxed - proportionately as in the UK - for a single payer system.

Yes, there are multiple proposals on the table, and taking a questionable part of one proposal and damning all proposals with it is hardly intellectually honest.


It isn't one proposal (it is actually 2, now since he just changed and re-released it).  Sure, only the Sanders proposals call for banning most private insurance, but that is not what I am referring to.

To say that a program that is funded by compulsory taxes and provided to people at no cost at the point of enrollment or use would not drastically shrink the individual market and all but eliminate the employer insurance market is unsupported by logic and economics.  It would effectively (hint: that word doesn't mean by force of law, but by force of effect) demolish the vast majority of the private insurance market.

But of course, I already explained this in my last post.

And how about addressing the point that, once this is factored in, support for Medicare for all falls to 37%?

Quote:
As for supporting the fact that the NHS provides health care outcomes that are twice as good, and cost half as much, as in the USA, across identical demographics, I have already done that on LNF. Go fish.



So, you won't do so.  OK. 

And I know you won't be able to support the argument that altering the funding mechanism to a Medicare for all program would actually lead to the US system costing half as much with better quality.  I know you won't be able to because A) it can't be supported and B) every single time I ask someone to on LNF they can't and the thread usually dies.  So I expect much the same here.
  
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