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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) A new element in liberal neofascism (Read 1,557 times)
TowardLiberty
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Re: A new element in liberal neofascism
Reply #50 - May 15th, 2019 at 7:05pm
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Limey. wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 6:44pm:
Absolutely wrong.


No, it's the truth.

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Work goes in to research.


Work goes in to experimentation.

Okay, so what?

Work goes into a lot things. Work goes into replicating and remixing ideas, no less.

Just because you work on something does not give you the right to profit from it.

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All those failed attempts at a light bulb filament,  Edison was paying people and for materials,  rent, power....

If you set up the Libertarian Light Bulb Factory on ideas stolen from the Edison lab, it's no better than if you stole the glass blowing equipment and the generator.


Nonsense, it's completely different.

If you steal actual factors of production, you have taken the fruits of someone's labor and will deprive them the use of their idea.

If you remix it, or replicate it, you don't. The original innovator still has the full use of his idea.
  

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petep
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Re: A new element in liberal neofascism
Reply #51 - May 15th, 2019 at 7:23pm
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TL can you give me an example, or examples of products that have a grip on the market that are preventing competing products from coming to mkt because of what you feel are laws in place preventing development or progress. I'm reading and I think understanding what you are trying to say/claim, but I don't believe what you are claiming is in place, is actually how patent and IP laws work.

I have posted examples of where development does not take place because of no restrictions (i.e. open pollinated vegetable development) vs. cases where great investment and strides have been made (hybrid vegetable development, not GMO) because of the massive investment and timeline required and the related protections.
  
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Limey.
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Re: A new element in liberal neofascism
Reply #52 - May 15th, 2019 at 7:31pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 7:05pm:
No, it's the truth.

Okay, so what?

Work goes into a lot things. Work goes into replicating and remixing ideas, no less.

Just because you work on something does not give you the right to profit from it.


Nonsense, it's completely different.

If you steal actual factors of production, you have taken the fruits of someone's labor and will deprive them the use of their idea.

If you remix it, or replicate it, you don't. The original innovator still has the full use of his idea.



Honestly,  this is one of the Libertarian things that makes everyone else scream in frustration.


Imagine you spent 5 years and every penny you had, borrowed up to the hilt, and mortgaged your parents' house in developing a great big new energy thing that used grass clippings and mud to generate abundant energy,  with a tap that gave out great ice cream.

You set up investment companies; they build a factory.  Employees flock in.


Oh but it's all over, 'cos Wong Sung Electric Garden Waste Uce Cream Ltd somehow got the drawings first, with subsidies  from the enlightened Chinese Government and now you're bankrupt,  the investors are down, there's a derelict grass clippings processing plant and 500 unemployed who can't get their old gigs back.


That's why we have intellectual property rights.
  

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Re: A new element in liberal neofascism
Reply #53 - May 15th, 2019 at 7:44pm
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Limey. wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 7:31pm:
Honestly,  this is one of the Libertarian things that makes everyone else scream in frustration.


Imagine you spent 5 years and every penny you had, borrowed up to the hilt, and mortgaged your parents' house in developing a great big new energy thing that used grass clippings and mud to generate abundant energy,  with a tap that gave out great ice cream.

You set up investment companies; they build a factory.  Employees flock in.


Oh but it's all over, 'cos Wong Sung Electric Garden Waste Uce Cream Ltd somehow got the drawings first, with subsidies  from the enlightened Chinese Government and now you're bankrupt,  the investors are down, there's a derelict grass clippings processing plant and 500 unemployed who can't get their old gigs back.


That's why we have intellectual property rights.


true - my specific real life example...there are basically 3 types of vegetable breeding...open pollinated, hybrid and GMO...the latter two you can get protections on..

open pollinated could be greatly improved...some refer to these as heirlooms...vegetables are living entities...and change, adapt etc over time,  each year actually...so taste, disease resistance, adaptabilty, productivity etc all change over time...its a constant battle to select and breed...but because there are no protections for OP work, no one does it..why invest 8-10 years and millions of dollars to select and breed for better characteristics,  when as soon as you get there, someone else will just take your seeds and reproduce their own...so in the real world, zero development takes place...

all development is in the latter two categories...AND...MOST IMPORTANT, companies are constantly outdoing each other with better and better varieties because they know they are protected on the variety they develop...BUT others can still develop better varieties....they just can't steal the parent seeds of the competitor and copy it...they must come up with their own parent lines...
  
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Re: A new element in liberal neofascism
Reply #54 - May 15th, 2019 at 8:02pm
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petep wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 7:04pm:
I use redhat linux with raspberry pi platforms/MMDVM boards so I am very familiar with it...but that is not the same as an open source product on its own that is for sale..people are using it to build something else...then that something else may be for sale and that something else cannot be copied.



That's because you sell support not the product.  Your right, you don't sell the open source "product" in most cases, because it's a mistake to call it a "product".



  
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Re: A new element in liberal neofascism
Reply #55 - May 15th, 2019 at 8:11pm
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atreyu wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 8:02pm:
That's because you sell support not the product.  Your right, you don't sell the open source "product" in most cases, because it's a mistake to call it a "product".





I understand what you are saying - but selling support is different...

you can sell exercise videos showing you using someone's weights, but you couldn't melt some iron, stamp their name on it and sell weights with their name on it
  
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Re: A new element in liberal neofascism
Reply #56 - May 15th, 2019 at 8:44pm
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petep wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 8:11pm:
I understand what you are saying - but selling support is different...

you can sell exercise videos showing you using someone's weights, but you couldn't melt some iron, stamp their name on it and sell weights with their name on it


I think most if not all revenue streams for open source are usually indirect.  Anyone that knows enough to write software is going to know this and not expect revenue coming from the software itself.

If you want to sell the software itself then you've pretty much got to keep the source to yourself, or only available to paying customers.

I've also seen it such that the software starts as open source but later becomes closed source and begins charging for continued use.

You're right, it's definitely not the way to go if your trying to make money based on the source itself with a few exceptions if you get lucky, but I don't think many people would be under the impression it's a viable path.

  
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Re: A new element in liberal neofacsism
Reply #57 - May 15th, 2019 at 8:49pm
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Limey. wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 9:17am:
You left out the massacres, Arab on Jew and Jew on Arab, and the terrorism against the British by both but mostly the Jews.

But now terrorism is a Bad Thing according to the Israelis,  which seems surprisingly hypocritical.


It's fun to take sides when it's only football,  but ignoring important elements in a narrative because of partisanship is silly; especially when,  like you, one becomes a buyable vote for a cynical politician who can dog whistle you. "Hey! We're going to recognise Jerusalem as Israel's capital! You like that? Don't you! Yeah, good puppy!!! Vote for me and wag your little tail!"


Complicated stuff really doesn't look good painted in primary colours.


Whoa - someone triggered you!  You're going wayyyyyyyyyyy off base.  My comment was just in response to that lunatic raghead saying the "palestinians" "created a safe haven" for the jews - at no point in the history of that place did they do that.
  
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Re: A new element in liberal neofascism
Reply #58 - May 15th, 2019 at 8:50pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 7:05pm:
If you remix it, or replicate it, you don't. The original innovator still has the full use of his idea.


Yeah, but if another company comes in and reverse engineers and replicates it they have a huge advantage in not having to spend in R&D.  If there's not some kind of protection no company in their right mind is going to spend money in R&D if every Harry, Dick and Tom can take it for pennies on the dollar.

To be clear I think the protections are the most interesting part of the story, and the length that it's protected.  That's also the hard part.   Disney shouldn't be able to lobby for protections 100 years after it's idea creation when even the original creator is no longer around (IMHO).






  
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Re: A new element in liberal neofascism
Reply #59 - May 15th, 2019 at 8:54pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 10:59am:
There you go again- using China's wealth destroying policies as an excuse to tax our own citizens more.


Like saying after Pearl Harbor in WW2:  "You're just using the Japanese attack as an excuse to tax people to buy aircraft carriers."   Grin

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Regarding intellectual property rights- I'm not a big fan- I share the view that these are grants of monopoly privilege.


Amazing - you think someone can work hard maybe for decades, to create an electronic device or pharmaceutical, or a movie or recording, and someone else can just copy it and make money off it?  That defies all common sense.

  
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