Liberty News Forum
Political News Forum - Let your opinions be heard on current news and politics. Not for wimps!
Political Opinion Page - Recent Posts - LNF Forums LNF in the Age of Empowerment! Algorithm free!
Christian Forum - Religion Forum - Entertainment - Sports Forum
Military - A1 News Page - Computers Tech - Financial News - Bunker - Rasmussen Presidential Tracking Poll
The House - Off the Wall News - Page 2 - Rasmussen Reports Polls - Chat Room
Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HerePolitical Opinion Page - The Hot Seat › A new element in liberal neofascism
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 10 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) A new element in liberal neofascism (Read 1,617 times)
Ulysses
LNF Speaker
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline

Bert plays with himself

Posts: 21,839
Location: Look up
Joined: Feb 19th, 2018
Gender: Male
Re: A new element in liberal neofascism
Reply #60 - May 15th, 2019 at 8:58pm
Print Post  
Wally Wants A Wall wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 11:34am:
" As an economic system, fascism is socialism with a capitalist veneer. The word derives from fasces, the Roman symbol of collectivism and power: "

https://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/Fascism.html


The problem with your source is that it is heavily right wing conservative biased.

  

 
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TowardLiberty
LNF Speaker
LNF Bunker
*****
Online

anti-state, anti-war and
pro-market

Posts: 37,952
Location: Houston
Joined: Apr 6th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: A new element in liberal neofascism
Reply #61 - May 15th, 2019 at 9:18pm
Print Post  
petep wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 7:23pm:
TL can you give me an example, or examples of products that have a grip on the market that are preventing competing products from coming to mkt because of what you feel are laws in place preventing development or progress.


Sure. Prescription drugs and pharmaceuticals. The EpiPen is a well known example. http://www.aei.org/publication/epipen-debacle-ip-issues-blame/

In general, any patents held by a patent troll would count as examples. Here's a link to a small list. https://science.howstuffworks.com/innovation/everyday-innovations/patent-trolls2...

Quote:
I'm reading and I think understanding what you are trying to say/claim, but I don't believe what you are claiming is in place, is actually how patent and IP laws work.


I don't think we disagree on the nature of patent law as much as we disagree about whether such laws are helpful or harmful. But perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps we do disagree on how IP works.

Where do you take issue with my understanding? (we both agree ideas cannot be patented per se, but rather we patent ideas embedded in products)

Quote:
I have posted examples of where development does not take place because of no restrictions (i.e. open pollinated vegetable development) vs. cases where great investment and strides have been made (hybrid vegetable development, not GMO) because of the massive investment and timeline required and the related protections.


Sure but private investment is shaped by government regulations in general. That in and of itself is no argument for the restriction, for we have to consider what investments would have been made otherwise. It's the old "broken window fallacy" insight about considering both the seen AND the unseen.
  

Open Trade, Open Borders, Taco Trucks on Every Corner

"It was the union of the anticapitalist forces of the Right and of the Left, the fusion of radical and conservative socialism, which drove out from Germany everything that was liberal.” F A Hayek
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TowardLiberty
LNF Speaker
LNF Bunker
*****
Online

anti-state, anti-war and
pro-market

Posts: 37,952
Location: Houston
Joined: Apr 6th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: A new element in liberal neofascism
Reply #62 - May 15th, 2019 at 9:23pm
Print Post  
Limey. wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 7:31pm:
Honestly,  this is one of the Libertarian things that makes everyone else scream in frustration.


I know. I find it ironic that some of the most strident anti-market folks (people who are almost socialists) care so much about capitalist profit that they look to enshrine it in law.

And that is frustrating for me too.

Quote:
Imagine you spent 5 years and every penny you had, borrowed up to the hilt, and mortgaged your parents' house in developing a great big new energy thing that used grass clippings and mud to generate abundant energy,  with a tap that gave out great ice cream.

You set up investment companies; they build a factory.  Employees flock in.


Oh but it's all over, 'cos Wong Sung Electric Garden Waste Uce Cream Ltd somehow got the drawings first, with subsidies  from the enlightened Chinese Government and now you're bankrupt,  the investors are down, there's a derelict grass clippings processing plant and 500 unemployed who can't get their old gigs back.


A better hypothetical would posit that you had first mover advantage for a couple years, cashed in with high profits, and then some upstart replicated the idea, reducing your market share and income. Guess what? You have to keep innovating.

As far as Chinese subsidies go, that's sh*tty but what are you going to do? US companies are subsidized by the US government, and we can't do much about it, how are we going to change what China does?

And guess what? Fleecing US consumers with retaliatory trade policies just makes the perfect the enemy of the good and does no one any favors but the rent seekers.

Quote:
That's why we have intellectual property rights.

Yes, capitalists hate competition. It's why we have IP, it's why we have bailouts and it's why we have a massive regulatory state.
  

Open Trade, Open Borders, Taco Trucks on Every Corner

"It was the union of the anticapitalist forces of the Right and of the Left, the fusion of radical and conservative socialism, which drove out from Germany everything that was liberal.” F A Hayek
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TowardLiberty
LNF Speaker
LNF Bunker
*****
Online

anti-state, anti-war and
pro-market

Posts: 37,952
Location: Houston
Joined: Apr 6th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: A new element in liberal neofascism
Reply #63 - May 15th, 2019 at 9:26pm
Print Post  
atreyu wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 8:50pm:
Yeah, but if another company comes in and reverse engineers and replicates it they have a huge advantage in not having to spend in R&D.  If there's not some kind of protection no company in their right mind is going to spend money in R&D if every Harry, Dick and Tom can take it for pennies on the dollar.


True but we get wealthy by those remixes. It's how we stack ideas on top of ideas- innovation on top of innovation.

It's good that other firms get to shortcut the R and D spending that first movers engage in. Otherwise we would be wasting resources in redundant projects.

Innovation is already the product of remixing prior innovations. IP restrictions just slow that process down and benefit some insiders.

Quote:
To be clear I think the protections are the most interesting part of the story, and the length that it's protected.  That's also the hard part.   Disney shouldn't be able to lobby for protections 100 years after it's idea creation when even the original creator is no longer around (IMHO).

I'm open to some compromise reforms along those lines. Baby steps.
  

Open Trade, Open Borders, Taco Trucks on Every Corner

"It was the union of the anticapitalist forces of the Right and of the Left, the fusion of radical and conservative socialism, which drove out from Germany everything that was liberal.” F A Hayek
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TowardLiberty
LNF Speaker
LNF Bunker
*****
Online

anti-state, anti-war and
pro-market

Posts: 37,952
Location: Houston
Joined: Apr 6th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: A new element in liberal neofascism
Reply #64 - May 15th, 2019 at 9:28pm
Print Post  
patrick2 wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 8:54pm:
Like saying after Pearl Harbor in WW2:  "You're just using the Japanese attack as an excuse to tax people to buy aircraft carriers."   Grin


It's nothing of the sort. That's a bad example.

The Japanese attacked Amercians. They didn't attack their own.

The Chinese are restricting the econmic growth of their own people. They're attacking themselves.

For your analogy to work, Pearl Harbor must have secretly been owned and operated by the Japanese. I don't think so, Sparky.

Quote:
Amazing - you think someone can work hard maybe for decades, to create an electronic device or pharmaceutical, or a movie or recording, and someone else can just copy it and make money off it?  That defies all common sense.


Bingo. Profit is uncertain and risky. Markets are rival. That's free market capitalism for ya. It might not be perfect but it's the best thing we have going.
« Last Edit: May 15th, 2019 at 9:55pm by TowardLiberty »  

Open Trade, Open Borders, Taco Trucks on Every Corner

"It was the union of the anticapitalist forces of the Right and of the Left, the fusion of radical and conservative socialism, which drove out from Germany everything that was liberal.” F A Hayek
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TowardLiberty
LNF Speaker
LNF Bunker
*****
Online

anti-state, anti-war and
pro-market

Posts: 37,952
Location: Houston
Joined: Apr 6th, 2008
Gender: Male
Re: A new element in liberal neofascism
Reply #65 - May 15th, 2019 at 9:55pm
Print Post  
Ulysses wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 8:58pm:
The problem with your source is that it is heavily right wing conservative biased.


Econlib is a Liberty Fund project. Those are liberals, not conservatives.
  

Open Trade, Open Borders, Taco Trucks on Every Corner

"It was the union of the anticapitalist forces of the Right and of the Left, the fusion of radical and conservative socialism, which drove out from Germany everything that was liberal.” F A Hayek
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Rabbit_Reborn
LNF Speaker
LNF Bunker
*****
Online

[i]Latin quote hinting
at my great intellect.[/i]

Posts: 25,862
Location: Midwest
Joined: Oct 17th, 2005
Re: A new element in liberal neofascism
Reply #66 - May 16th, 2019 at 6:55am
Print Post  
Limey. wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 4:11pm:
That's sort of a major plank in how businesses work though.

Yes. Trying to capture monopoly privileges through state enforced regulations is often a characteristic of businesses in modern fascistic economies.
  

Wadsworth wrote on Sep 19th, 2019 at 3:31pm:
We are talking about this government, aren't we?  If we were any other kind of government like China or NK, we would not even be having this discussion because you would not even be allowed to own a gun. 


Vypr wrote on Oct 15th, 2019 at 8:25am:
By all accounts Syria was somewhat calm.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Rabbit_Reborn
LNF Speaker
LNF Bunker
*****
Online

[i]Latin quote hinting
at my great intellect.[/i]

Posts: 25,862
Location: Midwest
Joined: Oct 17th, 2005
Re: A new element in liberal neofascism
Reply #67 - May 16th, 2019 at 7:00am
Print Post  
Fiddler wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 4:31pm:
Yes because the 1s and 0s that facilitated your typing of that spontaneously appeared out of thin air..

That's not what I said at all, so I'm unsure why that would be your response, unless it is to create a straw man to argue against.

Fiddler wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 4:31pm:
You are free to expend your labor building your own plow (a plow is an idea) but you are not free to steal the labor I put into building mine.

Are you saying that nobody except the original inventor of the plow should have ownership of the plow idea?

This seems to be an example that serves my purposes, rather than your own.

Fiddler wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 4:31pm:
You are free to expend your labor coding your own spreadsheet (a spreadsheet is an idea) but you are not free to steal the labor I put into coding mine.

That's fine. Unsure how I could get it from you without infringing on your property rights.

But don't send it to me, or I will use the concepts within it. You are free to use anything I might hypothetically share with you on how I use my spreadsheets.

Are you dreaming up brand new, previously unknown ways to code that spreadsheet, or is it all built upon other people's labor which was taught to you? From that point, did you "replicate and remix" those ideas to create something which suited your purpose?
  

Wadsworth wrote on Sep 19th, 2019 at 3:31pm:
We are talking about this government, aren't we?  If we were any other kind of government like China or NK, we would not even be having this discussion because you would not even be allowed to own a gun. 


Vypr wrote on Oct 15th, 2019 at 8:25am:
By all accounts Syria was somewhat calm.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
crepe05
LNF Speaker
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline

I Love Liberty News Forum!

Posts: 29,701
Location: Louisiana
Joined: Feb 25th, 2012
Gender: Female
Re: A new element in liberal neofacsism
Reply #68 - May 16th, 2019 at 7:14am
Print Post  
atreyu wrote on May 12th, 2019 at 6:46pm:
I guess the part I missed was you being brainwashed by KKK talking points AND also not understanding what fascism is.



Oh my, tell me the KKK "talking points" and how do you know what they are?  Where do you hang out to find them?  We need to know so that we all talk about the same thing.

Also, what do you think fascism is, so that we're all on same page to discuss it, if we care to.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
petep
Hardhat
LNF Bunker
*****
Online


Posts: 15,080
Location: Maine
Joined: Mar 4th, 2007
Gender: Male
Re: A new element in liberal neofascism
Reply #69 - May 16th, 2019 at 9:46am
Print Post  
TowardLiberty wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 9:18pm:
Sure. Prescription drugs and pharmaceuticals. The EpiPen is a well known example. http://www.aei.org/publication/epipen-debacle-ip-issues-blame/

In general, any patents held by a patent troll would count as examples. Here's a link to a small list. https://science.howstuffworks.com/innovation/everyday-innovations/patent-trolls2...


I don't think we disagree on the nature of patent law as much as we disagree about whether such laws are helpful or harmful. But perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps we do disagree on how IP works.

Where do you take issue with my understanding? (we both agree ideas cannot be patented per se, but rather we patent ideas embedded in products)


Sure but private investment is shaped by government regulations in general. That in and of itself is no argument for the restriction, for we have to consider what investments would have been made otherwise. It's the old "broken window fallacy" insight about considering both the seen AND the unseen.


This is where we have a disconnect...

You seem to believe there is not an epipen alternative or competition because they have some sort of lock or patent on the drug...that's what many "believe" -

No, they have a patent on the design of their pen and delivery method..there are alternatives - the "credit card" like delivery method...its just not as accepted.

AND most important anyone is free to design a better mousetrap...read this article

https://www.statnews.com/2016/09/09/epipen-lack-of-innovation/

You can see clearly historically it has not been done - even their competitor acknowledge the original design works and its not easy to build a self injecting self delivery method...

BUT, you can see people are working to better the design...

So bettering the design has always been an option...its just that no one bothered...

ever have to buy a mousetrap? Would you argue they have a patent and no one is allowed to develop one...hmmm, an expresion comes to mind...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 10
Send TopicPrint
 
Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HerePolitical Opinion Page - The Hot Seat › A new element in liberal neofascism

LNF Home - Political Opinion Page
LNF Forums

Christian Forum - Religion Forum - Sports Forum - Entertainment - House
Military, History - Cooking and Crafts - Creative Writing
Off the Wall News - Science Forum - Tech Gadgets - Financial News - Humor
Bunker - Page 2 - Page 3 - Page 4 - Chat Room





Drudge Report - News Max - Rush Limbaugh - FrontpageMag
Advertise on the LNF - Twitter LNF - LNF Archive - LNF News
LNF Blog
News and Political Links
Political Blogs
Add your website or blog
Political Columnists
Political Humor
A1 News Page
David Limbaugh
Political Frog
Conservatives Directory
President Trump Approval Poll
Presidential Party Election Poll
News forum posting, privacy policy and member rules