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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) A new element in liberal neofascism (Read 1,695 times)
Rabbit_Reborn
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Re: A new element in liberal neofascism
Reply #90 - May 16th, 2019 at 3:33pm
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petep wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 2:35pm:
it would seem a hallmark of modern, working, societies are private property rights...this notion that if I bought, invest in it, discovered it, I own it's mine and some gov't entity will enforce that right...my home, my land, my car, my camera - things I worked for that are mine...and I can appeal to the law to protect those who steal or take or encroach on my property.

It would seem logical that if I invest and produce a product that is unique, and there are legal hoops I must pass thru to demonstrate it is unique...then I should have some rights to protect my investment...

and we have laws that if abuse my invention in a monopolistic way, then I will be stopped...and over time, my "invention" protections will run out...

all in all it seems reasonable...

if there were more money to be made by not protecting investment & resulting inventions with rights, why would anyone ever invest...

Because you'd still be able to make money with it.

You just wouldn't be granted monopoly privilege over it, enforced by the state.

The innovator will not, in most cases, be rewarded as significantly for a single idea, invention, or process. However, there is still great reward, and the consumer would be better off, and more innovators would exist.

petep wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 2:35pm:
the argument seems to be if you buy your home, and anyone can use it, they'd probably make additions to it, bring in add'l furniture etc and increase its value...but to who?

I find it impossible to think of an idea, song, process, story to be genuinely considered the exact same as an actual physical asset.

If I see the Bessemer process and then try to recreate and perhaps improve on it, as Mushet did before dying relatively destitute when compared to how much he had improved on Bessemer's process (due to patents), I don't take anything from Bessemer.

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Henry Bessemer himself had realised that the problem of quality was due to impurities in the iron and concluded that the solution lay in knowing when to turn off the flow of air in his process; so that the impurities had been burned off, but just the right quantity of carbon remained. Despite spending tens of thousands of pounds on experiments, however, he could not find the answer.

Mushet's solution was simple, but elegant; he first burnt off, as far as possible, all the impurities and carbon, then reintroduced carbon and manganese by adding an exact amount of spiegeleisen. This had the effect of improving the quality of the finished product, increasing its malleability – its ability to withstand rolling and forging at high temperatures.

I saw then that the Bessemer process was perfected and that, with fair play, untold wealth would reward Mr. Bessemer and myself..."

Mushet's dream was never to be fulfilled. While others made fortunes from his discoveries, he failed to capitalise on his successes and by 1866 was destitute and in ill health. In that year his 16-year-old daughter, Mary, travelled to London alone, to confront Bessemer at his offices, arguing that his success was based on the results of her father's work.

Bessemer, whose own process for producing steel was not economically viable without Mushet's method for improving quality, decided to pay Mushet an annual pension of £300, a very considerable sum, which he paid for over 20 years; possibly with a view to keeping the Mushets from legal action.

Blech. Mushet got hosed.
  

Wadsworth wrote on Sep 19th, 2019 at 3:31pm:
We are talking about this government, aren't we?  If we were any other kind of government like China or NK, we would not even be having this discussion because you would not even be allowed to own a gun. 


Vypr wrote on Oct 15th, 2019 at 8:25am:
By all accounts Syria was somewhat calm.
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Re: A new element in liberal neofascism
Reply #91 - May 16th, 2019 at 4:01pm
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Rabbit_Reborn wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 3:33pm:
Because you'd still be able to make money with it.

.


How??? I am serious...I've posted many real life examples...How, for example, in the seed business, could I ever make money investing 10 years to develop a better heirloom/open pollinated variety, when as soon as I'm done, people who buy it simply plant, save the seeds, resell the exact same product next year it took me 10 years thru selection and breeding to develop...

Making money under this scenario cannot be done, that's why the only people who do it are non-profits - and very few of them....

and that's why heirloom varieties keep getting worse and worse...no one is investing the time, money and energy to bring back great selections that have taste, disease resistance, better germinations rates etc...

  
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Re: A new element in liberal neofascism
Reply #92 - May 16th, 2019 at 6:49pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on May 15th, 2019 at 9:28pm:
It's nothing of the sort. That's a bad example.

The Japanese attacked Amercian . They didn't attack their own.


No, it's a dead on target metaphor.  The Chinese attack American companies with cyber theft every day.

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The Chinese are restricting the econmic growth of their own people. They're attacking themselves.


Thinking of becoming a liberal?  The ones here also turn reality upside down.  The Chinese went from a third world country to what in a short time will be the world's pre-eminent economic power!


Quote:
Bingo. Profit is uncertain and risky. Markets are rival. That's free market capitalism for ya. It might not be perfect but it's the best thing we have going.


What a brazen distortion.  Property rights are at the heart of what most libertarians espouse.  A better comment for your position is to say "Theft and burglary happen all the time - it's a risk for businesses."
  
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Re: A new element in liberal neofascism
Reply #93 - May 16th, 2019 at 7:30pm
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Fiddler wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 1:58pm:
Perhaps they gave it away..  Roll Eyes


Indeed. When they made their art public, they essentially gave it away. The idea seeped into our collective consciousness.

Quote:
Then I haven't been arguing that the plow is just an improvement on the stick.  Both can accomplish the same thing.. one more effectively.  I've said that you are not entitled to the labor I've expended building mine.

Yes, and I would argue that as long as you've got your plow, if I build a mockup or knock off, you still have your labor.

Quote:
Practically any schmoe could look at a simple plow and build their own.  You are free to use the idea to build your own.   

You can't claim that about an electronic spreadsheet .. 

Not sure how old you are but you were probably aware of spreadsheets used in accounting prior to VisiCalc.. arguably the first 'killer app' .  Practically any schmoe cannot reproduce that effort.  Few can put in the labor to learn coding and produce this product.

Why you buy Excel.. you're not buying the idea of a spreadsheet.. You're buying the labor required to arrange the 0s and 1s in a manner that produces a spreadsheet.

When you give a copy away you are an accomplice in the theft of labor.


I disagree. The coders were paid a long time ago. Labor has been compensated.

If something is diminished here, it's capitalist profit.

And I don't think anyone ought to be entitled to a profit rate or market share, restrictions granted by the state not withstanding.

Quote:
And if you're going to being 'fire' into this then you may as well include air, water and sunlight. Any of which are ubiquitous..  As those, neither can you patent falling water, round trees, or the wind...all of which can be used by an innovator, using his labor, to accomplish a task.

I don't believe fire has been ubiquitous as wind, water and sunlight, in ancient history, for those are natural and will exist no matter what. Fire has to be produced. And before you can produce it, you have to know you can produce it, and how.

Imagine if prometheus had IP? Where would we be?
  

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Re: A new element in liberal neofascism
Reply #94 - May 16th, 2019 at 7:31pm
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Fiddler wrote on May 16th, 2019 at 2:17pm:
Yea.. That's why we see so many manuscripts by Muffat, Graupner, and Adolf Scheibe that are Bach's Brandenburg Concerto note for note..

Inspiration is not bit by bit theft..


It doesn't need to be bit by bit theft to trigger a patent infringement. You just need to include some significant part of the patented tech.
  

Open Trade, Open Borders, Taco Trucks on Every Corner

"It was the union of the anticapitalist forces of the Right and of the Left, the fusion of radical and conservative socialism, which drove out from Germany everything that was liberal.” F A Hayek
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