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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Ponzi Scheme Libertarianism (Read 1,043 times)
TowardLiberty
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Re: Ponzi Scheme Libertarianism
Reply #20 - Jun 8th, 2019 at 11:39pm
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Jasmine wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 11:29pm:
But what about people who don’t work? What if they rely on government welfare?

Aren’t they detriments to our economy?

Perhaps in some narrow sense as measured by their contribution to GDP or the national product, but I would argue few people meet such a criteria. Most government transfers go to the old, not the poor. Most people work when they are young and use public benefits when they get older.

And even those who are disabled or are living purely off the system have an intrinsic worth and add value to the lives of their friends and loved ones that cannot be measured in money terms, or in output statistics.
  

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Jasmine
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Re: Ponzi Scheme Libertarianism
Reply #21 - Jun 8th, 2019 at 11:44pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 11:39pm:
Perhaps in some narrow sense as measured by their contribution to GDP or the national product, but I would argue few people meet such a criteria. Most government transfers go to the old, not the poor. Most people work when they are young and use public benefits when they get older.


I’m sure you’re right. But I suspect the number of able-bodied, young people who live off the government dole is quite large. So in that respect, I consider them to be a burden on our ecenomy.

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And even those who are disabled or are living purely off the system have an intrinsic worth and add value to the lives of their friends and loved ones that cannot be measured in money terms, or in output statistics.

Again, you are right. But we are talking about the economy.
  


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TowardLiberty
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Re: Ponzi Scheme Libertarianism
Reply #22 - Jun 8th, 2019 at 11:55pm
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Jasmine wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 11:44pm:
I’m sure you’re right. But I suspect the number of able-bodied, young people who live off the government dole is quite large. So in that respect, I consider them to be a burden on our ecenomy.


I don't believe the data bears this out..

https://www.thebalance.com/welfare-programs-definition-and-list-3305759

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Again, you are right. But we are talking about the economy.

Sure but I think the economy is more than numbers on a balance sheet. What ultimately matters is the human element.

  

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Jasmine
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Re: Ponzi Scheme Libertarianism
Reply #23 - Jun 9th, 2019 at 12:36am
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TowardLiberty wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 11:55pm:
I don't believe the data bears this out..

https://www.thebalance.com/welfare-programs-definition-and-list-3305759

Sure but I think the economy is more than numbers on a balance sheet. What ultimately matters is the human element.


I’m not responding to this because I can’t argue against any of it. You win. Again.
  


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Re: Ponzi Scheme Libertarianism
Reply #24 - Jun 9th, 2019 at 1:52am
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TowardLiberty wrote on Jun 8th, 2019 at 10:25am:
A narrow ideology?

That's cute coming from someone who think moderns are a bunch of greedy, materialistic, disconnected, a-spiritual automatons just because we don't follow a traditionalist lifestyle.

You have a very narrow view of the transcendent and modern life, all driven by ideology, so I have to grin at your words above.

And by the way, economics is called the queen of the social sciences because it regularly poaches on the domain of all the others. That's not being narrow, if anything, it is the opposite.


Yeah, a narrow reductionist view of reality, which often simply does nothing more than provide rationalizations for peoples bad behavior.

Economics is Queen of the social sciences? Kind of like being King of the Dunghill, methinks.
  


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TowardLiberty
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Re: Ponzi Scheme Libertarianism
Reply #25 - Jun 9th, 2019 at 2:51am
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Frank1 wrote on Jun 9th, 2019 at 1:52am:
Yeah, a narrow reductionist view of reality, which often simply does nothing more than provide rationalizations for peoples bad behavior.

Economics is Queen of the social sciences? Kind of like being King of the Dunghill, methinks.

You're not giving me anything to respond to. Make a claim. Take a risk.
  

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"It was the union of the anticapitalist forces of the Right and of the Left, the fusion of radical and conservative socialism, which drove out from Germany everything that was liberal.” F A Hayek
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Re: Ponzi Scheme Libertarianism
Reply #26 - Jun 9th, 2019 at 5:01am
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TowardLiberty wrote on Jun 9th, 2019 at 2:51am:
You're not giving me anything to respond to. Make a claim. Take a risk.


Economists simply justify bad behavior with their theories.

For example, there is no law akin to gravity that justifies charging higher prices for scarce goods. This is just greed. In medieval economic theory the value of something was determined by the labor that went into making or obtaining it, not by its availability.

But modern economists justify greed with their so-called 'law of supply and demand.'

One example of many possible.
  


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TowardLiberty
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Re: Ponzi Scheme Libertarianism
Reply #27 - Jun 9th, 2019 at 12:19pm
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Frank1 wrote on Jun 9th, 2019 at 5:01am:
Economists simply justify bad behavior with their theories.

For example, there is no law akin to gravity that justifies charging higher prices for scarce goods. This is just greed. In medieval economic theory the value of something was determined by the labor that went into making or obtaining it, not by its availability.

But modern economists justify greed with their so-called 'law of supply and demand.'

One example of many possible.

So you think prices are determined by greed rather than scarcity?

There most certainly is a force or law that causes higher prices for scarce goods. It's called human want in the context of rivalrous consumption.

Scarce things are in short supply vs the needs and wants of the market. People that make these products available are able to trade for them and thus prices are formed.

This all happens as a natural consequence of people trying to acquire the things they need to survive and thrive. There is your "economic gravity," in human needs and preferences.

Medieval economic theory was rudimentary and the labor theory of value is untenable. Value is in our minds, it's not an objective property of anything, including labor.

Economists do not justify bad behavior. If anything, they try to show what incentives should look like to nudge good behavior, or to promote higher living standards and social cooperation, or to reduce cronyism.

If you don't understand how supply and demand lead to price formation, instead focusing on greed as the key element, and if you also believe in the labor theory of value, I have some advice.  Drop everything and go read some economics!
« Last Edit: Jun 9th, 2019 at 12:37pm by TowardLiberty »  

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"It was the union of the anticapitalist forces of the Right and of the Left, the fusion of radical and conservative socialism, which drove out from Germany everything that was liberal.” F A Hayek
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Re: Ponzi Scheme Libertarianism
Reply #28 - Jun 9th, 2019 at 8:28pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Jun 9th, 2019 at 12:19pm:
So you think prices are determined by greed rather than scarcity?

There most certainly is a force or law that causes higher prices for scarce goods. It's called human want in the context of rivalrous consumption.

Scarce things are in short supply vs the needs and wants of the market. People that make these products available are able to trade for them and thus prices are formed.

This all happens as a natural consequence of people trying to acquire the things they need to survive and thrive. There is your "economic gravity," in human needs and preferences.

Medieval economic theory was rudimentary and the labor theory of value is untenable. Value is in our minds, it's not an objective property of anything, including labor.

Economists do not justify bad behavior. If anything, they try to show what incentives should look like to nudge good behavior, or to promote higher living standards and social cooperation, or to reduce cronyism.

If you don't understand how supply and demand lead to price formation, instead focusing on greed as the key element, and if you also believe in the labor theory of value, I have some advice.  Drop everything and go read some economics!


Why is the labor theory of value untenable?

As to value being in our minds this is only true in a limited sense. Things have a value in themselves, regardless of what individuals or even a whole society thinks about them.

The traditional view is more that value is objective,  and people either do or do not conform to this objective nature of things.

To say that value is subjective is of course very humanist, relativist and individualistic: in other words very modern.

Medieval economic theory was simple, rather than rudimentary. Modern economic theory, in all its self- justifying complexity, actually represents a decline from medieval economic theory, which was based on a few solid and largely Christian first principles. Complexity does not equal superiority.

  


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Re: Ponzi Scheme Libertarianism
Reply #29 - Jun 9th, 2019 at 11:17pm
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Frank, the idea of going back to being starving peasants working exclusively for some shit head lord is not romantic or pleasant.
  

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Regulations are designed to protect the consumer and the worker.  If it doesn’t,it is not a regulation.



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