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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Ponzi Scheme Libertarianism (Read 991 times)
TowardLiberty
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Re: Ponzi Scheme Libertarianism
Reply #30 - Jun 9th, 2019 at 11:54pm
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Frank1 wrote on Jun 9th, 2019 at 8:28pm:


Why is the labor theory of value untenable?

To boil it all down, there is no empirical relationship between labor expended and value.

Certain things are considered quite valuable, yet involve relatively little labor to produce and others are considered nearly worthless even after a considerable amount of embedded labor.

Value is fickle and cannot be predicted purely based on prior costs, labor costs or otherwise.

That's the basic empirical argument against the labor theory of value. Prices do not track labor costs. Labor costs are no predictor of future prices or profits. There's no empirical relationship.

The theoretical or logical argument surrounds a discussion of the nature of value and the way it rests on our knowledge of how something can satisfy a need we have.

The labor theory of value is logically similar to the English cost theory of value. It understands value as a property embedded in capital or labor, and which then flows into the goods produced by them.

The marginal revolution reversed this understanding and explains the value of labor and capital as a reflection of their role in producing output for consumers. This model has value flowing from consumer goods to inputs like labor and capital and finally raw materials.

The subjectivist approach places human perceptions and values at the forefront of exchange, production and the system of prices which spring up as a consequence. No longer did we have to rely on some mystical and unexplained objective property known as "value." No longer did value theory succumb to impossible theoretical puzzles, such as the diamond water paradox.

The marginal (subjectivist) revolution answered all the theoretical puzzles that the labor theory of value could not while also explaining the dynamic changes we see in prices that are impossible to square with any notion of objective value.
« Last Edit: Jun 10th, 2019 at 9:41pm by TowardLiberty »  

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Frank1
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Re: Ponzi Scheme Libertarianism
Reply #31 - Jun 10th, 2019 at 4:31am
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Lomelis wrote on Jun 9th, 2019 at 11:17pm:
Frank, the idea of going back to being starving peasants working exclusively for some shit head lord is not romantic or pleasant.


I think you can do better than simply repeating tropes. Yes, anyone who sees anything good in the pre- modern world is just a silly romantic longing for the days when most people starved under cruel lords.

The fact is, any economic system will involve poverty and even oppression for segments of the population. Here in the Philippines millions of people live in the most abject poverty to this day, and the Philippines is hardly a singular case. You can also simply replace 'cruel lord' with 'money-grubbing capitalist.'

But the real gulf between us is in the refusal of the modernists to count the loss of traditional culture and religion, which in the traditional view is an utterly massive and tragic loss.

But even just sticking with a strictly rationalist and materialist evaluation of things the current global system fails a large part of the world's population. I have a hard time believing the millions of modern Filipino slum dwellers, for instance, wouldn't prefer the simple agricultural/communal/religious lives of their ancestors to living in a dirty crowded slum which further more exists at times within the sight of unreachable wealth.

You see, with the destruction of traditional culture the world's people were sold a bill: namely that technological and material progress would make up the loss. This promise has failed drastically in much of the world. Those who simply push out the promised materialist utopia to a future date of 'better policies' are just that: utopianists
  


The 17th Century ~ The halfway point between the Middle Ages and Modernity
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Rabbit_Reborn
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Re: Ponzi Scheme Libertarianism
Reply #32 - Jun 10th, 2019 at 5:32am
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Frank1 wrote on Jun 9th, 2019 at 5:01am:
In medieval economic theory the value of something was determined by the labor that went into making or obtaining it, not by its availability.

The labor theory of value is just too easily and objectively dismissed under the slightest scrutiny and challenge.

Truly.

It’s one of those things, Frank. Sometimes human beings do improve on ideas...
  

Buddy_Love wrote on Jul 16th, 2019 at 5:17pm:
I'm fine where I am. I love America. However, you don't like America, so it's you that should leave.


Ulysses wrote on Aug 12th, 2019 at 10:00pm:
I dare you to say that to Cuomo's face.
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Frank1
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Re: Ponzi Scheme Libertarianism
Reply #33 - Jun 10th, 2019 at 5:48am
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Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Jun 10th, 2019 at 5:32am:
The labor theory of value is just too easily and objectively dismissed under the slightest scrutiny and challenge.

Truly.

It’s one of those things, Frank. Sometimes human beings do improve on ideas...


I'll have to look in detail at TL's post before replying.
  


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TowardLiberty
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Re: Ponzi Scheme Libertarianism
Reply #34 - Jun 10th, 2019 at 11:37am
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Frank1 wrote on Jun 10th, 2019 at 4:31am:
You can also simply replace 'cruel lord' with 'money-grubbing capitalist.'

But even just sticking with a strictly rationalist and materialist evaluation of things the current global system fails a large part of the world's population.

You see, with the destruction of traditional culture the world's people were sold a bill: namely that technological and material progress would make up the loss. This promise has failed drastically in much of the world.


This seems like a disagreement that can be cleared up with recourse to facts and data.



From 1800-1975 we barely moved the needle on global poverty. From 1975-2015 the number of people living on 1 dollar a day plummeted. Now it's a fraction of what it was. It's been cut in half over the last 30 years.

These facts contend that we are not merely replacing lords with capitalists. We are seeing substantial decreases in poverty and rises in living standards. We're seeing progress at a rate never before seen in the world, and in a time when the Malthusians suggested we would run out of food and natural resources.

This massive decrease in global poverty is a modern economic miracle. To lament this progress is to wish for misery, poverty, starvation, suffering and death for billions of people.
« Last Edit: Jun 10th, 2019 at 11:45am by TowardLiberty »  

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EF
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Re: Ponzi Scheme Libertarianism
Reply #35 - Jun 10th, 2019 at 12:39pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Jun 10th, 2019 at 11:37am:
This seems like a disagreement that can be cleared up with recourse to facts and data.

https://i.ibb.co/pL810q8/Screen-Shot-2019-06-10-at-10-30-21-AM-50.png

From 1800-1975 we barely moved the needle on global poverty. From 1975-2015 the number of people living on 1 dollar a day plummeted. Now it's a fraction of what it was. It's been cut in half over the last 30 years.

These facts contend that we are not merely replacing lords with capitalists. We are seeing substantial decreases in poverty and rises in living standards. We're seeing progress at a rate never before seen in the world, and in a time when the Malthusians suggested we would run out of food and natural resources.

This massive decrease in global poverty is a modern economic miracle. To lament this progress is to wish for misery, poverty, starvation, suffering and death for billions of people.


Sounds like Jasmine's goal for criminals and Muslims.
  

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Mojo-Jojo
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Re: Ponzi Scheme Libertarianism
Reply #36 - Jun 10th, 2019 at 7:52pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Jun 10th, 2019 at 11:37am:
This seems like a disagreement that can be cleared up with recourse to facts and data.

https://i.ibb.co/pL810q8/Screen-Shot-2019-06-10-at-10-30-21-AM-50.png

From 1800-1975 we barely moved the needle on global poverty. From 1975-2015 the number of people living on 1 dollar a day plummeted. Now it's a fraction of what it was. It's been cut in half over the last 30 years.

These facts contend that we are not merely replacing lords with capitalists. We are seeing substantial decreases in poverty and rises in living standards. We're seeing progress at a rate never before seen in the world, and in a time when the Malthusians suggested we would run out of food and natural resources.

This massive decrease in global poverty is a modern economic miracle. To lament this progress is to wish for misery, poverty, starvation, suffering and death for billions of people.


The mid 70's is when globalization really took off.

We declared war on unions to divide us into a fight while the factories were shuttered and the product outsourced. The blame, of course, is not with the politicians, who do what business wants, or even with business, as they just give us what we want, lower prices.

From a big picture perspective, consumerism both killed our own national manufacturing base and elevated millions out of poverty.

A fascinating irony there somewhere.  Grin
  

If you are more fortunate than others, build a longer table, not a taller fence.

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petep
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Re: Ponzi Scheme Libertarianism
Reply #37 - Jun 10th, 2019 at 8:02pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Jun 7th, 2019 at 10:08pm:
Ponzi scheme? Not hardly. More people = more demand = equal more investment and production = higher wages.

This is basic economics.

You seem to be working from a Malthusian fixed-pie, zero-sum vision of the economy and labor. It's the same fallacy which imagines the profit of capitalists to come at the expense of labor- an extraction of sorts.

In reality, profits are earned through production and exchange and are the reward for increasing the pie. Immigrants and their wages work the same way.

Neither come at the expense of others. This is about added value. And yes, those brown people add value to this world and that includes those who can't speak English all that well.



I agree with all you wrote.

But I’d add this - bigger does not mean better. Quantity does not equal quality

Having lived in s central Los Angeles for a couple years I can tell you there was no shortage of people. I’ve also lived in the suburbs and rural areas with far fewer people. I preferred the latter two, not getting robbed several times and not going to bed to the sound of gunfire.

“Who” you are adding does matter in many levels.
  
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TowardLiberty
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Re: Ponzi Scheme Libertarianism
Reply #38 - Jun 10th, 2019 at 8:55pm
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Mojo-Jojo wrote on Jun 10th, 2019 at 7:52pm:
The mid 70's is when globalization really took off.

We declared war on unions to divide us into a fight while the factories were shuttered and the product outsourced. The blame, of course, is not with the politicians, who do what business wants, or even with business, as they just give us what we want, lower prices.

From a big picture perspective, consumerism both killed our own national manufacturing base and elevated millions out of poverty.

A fascinating irony there somewhere.  Grin

That's not the story I'm familiar with..

Our manufacturing output continues to hit record highs, year over year.

Yet jobs in manufacturing have dropped like a stone.

The reason is not outsourcing, it's automation. It's not consumerism that is to blame, or free trade. It's capitalism and technological progress.

I largely agree with your big picture perspective. Capitalism has killed untold numbers of jobs and lifted millions out of poverty. And that is a fascinating irony.
« Last Edit: Jun 10th, 2019 at 9:10pm by TowardLiberty »  

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Re: Ponzi Scheme Libertarianism
Reply #39 - Jun 10th, 2019 at 9:06pm
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It’s in our dna to always want better faster cheaper...no one ever said well banister broke 4 minutes. Let’s stop trying to run faster.

That’s a positive thing.
  
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