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Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HerePolitical Opinion Page - The Hot Seat › Ponzi Scheme Libertarianism
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Ponzi Scheme Libertarianism (Read 1,028 times)
TowardLiberty
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Re: Ponzi Scheme Libertarianism
Reply #40 - Jun 10th, 2019 at 9:21pm
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petep wrote on Jun 10th, 2019 at 8:02pm:
I agree with all you wrote.

But I’d add this - bigger does not mean better. Quantity does not equal quality

Having lived in s central Los Angeles for a couple years I can tell you there was no shortage of people. I’ve also lived in the suburbs and rural areas with far fewer people. I preferred the latter two, not getting robbed several times and not going to bed to the sound of gunfire.

“Who” you are adding does matter in many levels.

It certainly does matter who comes over. There are some not-so-nice people who come over illegally and do bad things. I don't deny that.

But there are many more who are just trying to make a better life for themselves. So we can't generalize. It's best to take people as individuals.
  

Open Trade, Open Borders, Taco Trucks on Every Corner

"It was the union of the anticapitalist forces of the Right and of the Left, the fusion of radical and conservative socialism, which drove out from Germany everything that was liberal.” F A Hayek
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Re: Ponzi Scheme Libertarianism
Reply #41 - Jun 10th, 2019 at 10:03pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Jun 10th, 2019 at 9:21pm:
It certainly does matter who comes over. There are some not-so-nice people who come over illegally and do bad things. I don't deny that.

But there are many more who are just trying to make a better life for themselves. So we can't generalize. It's best to take people as individuals.


Would you prefer to see screening who comes here, vetting, or open borders, no checks?
  
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TowardLiberty
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Re: Ponzi Scheme Libertarianism
Reply #42 - Jun 10th, 2019 at 10:05pm
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petep wrote on Jun 10th, 2019 at 10:03pm:
Would you prefer to see screening who comes here, vetting, or open borders, no checks?

I'd prefer open borders with screening for violent or dangerous criminals as a general goal.
  

Open Trade, Open Borders, Taco Trucks on Every Corner

"It was the union of the anticapitalist forces of the Right and of the Left, the fusion of radical and conservative socialism, which drove out from Germany everything that was liberal.” F A Hayek
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petep
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Re: Ponzi Scheme Libertarianism
Reply #43 - Jun 10th, 2019 at 10:13pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Jun 10th, 2019 at 10:05pm:
I'd prefer open borders with screening for violent or dangerous criminals as a general goal.


Aren’t those two opposing thoughts/ideas. Open implies well open

Screening implies some sort of checkpoint and background check.

  
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Re: Ponzi Scheme Libertarianism
Reply #44 - Jun 10th, 2019 at 10:55pm
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petep wrote on Jun 10th, 2019 at 10:13pm:
Aren’t those two opposing thoughts/ideas. Open implies well open

Screening implies some sort of checkpoint and background check.


There definitely is some tension there. The trick is finding the right balance. I think the idea still qualifies as open borders because anyone who wants to come can, regardless of IQ, ethnicity, religion, country of origin, income, status etc, it simply holds the line at violent criminals.

As far as the best way to accomplish this goal, I'm open to suggestions.
  

Open Trade, Open Borders, Taco Trucks on Every Corner

"It was the union of the anticapitalist forces of the Right and of the Left, the fusion of radical and conservative socialism, which drove out from Germany everything that was liberal.” F A Hayek
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petep
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Re: Ponzi Scheme Libertarianism
Reply #45 - Jun 10th, 2019 at 10:59pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Jun 10th, 2019 at 10:55pm:
There definitely is some tension there. The trick is finding the right balance. I think the idea still qualifies as open borders because anyone who wants to come can, regardless of IQ, ethnicity, religion, country of origin, income, status etc, it simply holds the line at violent criminals.

As far as the best way to accomplish this goal, I'm open to suggestions.


I understand the distinction tl. I was interpreting open in the literal sense and you meant figuratively.

A dumb question, as it is today, can’t anyone become a citizen legally as long as they are not a “bad guy”. All those I know who are citizens in the past 30 years have never known any of their countrymen to be turned away arbitrarily


  
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TowardLiberty
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Re: Ponzi Scheme Libertarianism
Reply #46 - Jun 10th, 2019 at 11:07pm
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petep wrote on Jun 10th, 2019 at 10:59pm:
I understand the distinction tl. I was interpreting open in the literal sense and you meant figuratively.


I still mean it literally. I don't advocate for a border wall. But I also don't have a problem deporting violent people who aren't legally here.

Quote:
A dumb question, as it is today, can’t anyone become a citizen legally as long as they are not a “bad guy”. All those I know who are citizens in the past 30 years have never known any of their countrymen to be turned away arbitrarily



I'm seeing articles about the government dragging it's feet processing applications. It's expensive. And you have to be a permanent resident, first. If it was easy there would not be a large population of non-citizens.
  

Open Trade, Open Borders, Taco Trucks on Every Corner

"It was the union of the anticapitalist forces of the Right and of the Left, the fusion of radical and conservative socialism, which drove out from Germany everything that was liberal.” F A Hayek
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Lomelis
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Re: Ponzi Scheme Libertarianism
Reply #47 - Jun 11th, 2019 at 1:59am
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Frank1 wrote on Jun 10th, 2019 at 4:31am:
I think you can do better than simply repeating tropes. Yes, anyone who sees anything good in the pre- modern world is just a silly romantic longing for the days when most people starved under cruel lords.

The fact is, any economic system will involve poverty and even oppression for segments of the population. Here in the Philippines millions of people live in the most abject poverty to this day, and the Philippines is hardly a singular case. You can also simply replace 'cruel lord' with 'money-grubbing capitalist.'

But the real gulf between us is in the refusal of the modernists to count the loss of traditional culture and religion, which in the traditional view is an utterly massive and tragic loss.

But even just sticking with a strictly rationalist and materialist evaluation of things the current global system fails a large part of the world's population. I have a hard time believing the millions of modern Filipino slum dwellers, for instance, wouldn't prefer the simple agricultural/communal/religious lives of their ancestors to living in a dirty crowded slum which further more exists at times within the sight of unreachable wealth.

You see, with the destruction of traditional culture the world's people were sold a bill: namely that technological and material progress would make up the loss. This promise has failed drastically in much of the world. Those who simply push out the promised materialist utopia to a future date of 'better policies' are just that: utopianists


Is the moderm situation perfect? Of course not.  There is still extreme poverty, there is still extreme corruption.

But you fail to acknowledge that despite these short comings the poverty and corruption is nothing like it used to be.

Starvation, disease, war...that was the life that you ultimately yearn for and try to romanticize. 

It's a great thing that those cultural traditions are slowly going away.

  

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Wadsworth wrote on Feb 19th, 2019 at 9:18am:
Regulations are designed to protect the consumer and the worker.  If it doesn’t,it is not a regulation.



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Frank1
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Re: Ponzi Scheme Libertarianism
Reply #48 - Jun 11th, 2019 at 4:58am
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TowardLiberty wrote on Jun 10th, 2019 at 11:37am:
This seems like a disagreement that can be cleared up with recourse to facts and data.

https://i.ibb.co/pL810q8/Screen-Shot-2019-06-10-at-10-30-21-AM-50.png

From 1800-1975 we barely moved the needle on global poverty. From 1975-2015 the number of people living on 1 dollar a day plummeted. Now it's a fraction of what it was. It's been cut in half over the last 30 years.

These facts contend that we are not merely replacing lords with capitalists. We are seeing substantial decreases in poverty and rises in living standards. We're seeing progress at a rate never before seen in the world, and in a time when the Malthusians suggested we would run out of food and natural resources.

This massive decrease in global poverty is a modern economic miracle. To lament this progress is to wish for misery, poverty, starvation, suffering and death for billions of people.


Honestly, statistics are almost like a black art they are so easily manipulated and/or misleading.

Sure a modern 3rd world slum dweller may actually be wealthier than their ancestors. They may even have a smart phone. But is their overall standard of life any better?

You know there was just an editorial in one of the papers here the other day that mentioned how misleading statistics can be in measuring the quality of life of Filipinos.
  


The 17th Century ~ The halfway point between the Middle Ages and Modernity
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Frank1
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Re: Ponzi Scheme Libertarianism
Reply #49 - Jun 11th, 2019 at 5:08am
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Lomelis wrote on Jun 11th, 2019 at 1:59am:
Is the moderm situation perfect? Of course not.  There is still extreme poverty, there is still extreme corruption.

But you fail to acknowledge that despite these short comings the poverty and corruption is nothing like it used to be.

Starvation, disease, war...that was the life that you ultimately yearn for and try to romanticize. 

It's a great thing that those cultural traditions are slowly going away.



I think you really don't know what you are talking about.

There is the type of poverty that simply exists in not having a lot of things. Maybe just food and shelter in quantitative terms. But in qualitative terms these people might have communal, work and spiritual conditions that modern people can only envy. In the Philippines this would be the poverty of people living in Nipa huts by the river and living by fishing, hunting, gathering or planting rice 2 or 3 hours a day.

By contrast modernity has brought with it a truly ugly and grinding poverty that consists of working meaningless jobs with low pay to make foreign investors rich and living in extremely crowded and dirty and dangerous urban slums, all the while surrounded with images of wealth that one cannot reach and which produce despair in many of the poor.

This is the side of 'progress' that apparently many people would like to sweep under the rug with misleading statistics, talk of the 'oppressive past' or outright denial.
  


The 17th Century ~ The halfway point between the Middle Ages and Modernity
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