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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) - now that tariffs are proving to work will Presidential candidates support tariffs? (Read 1,063 times)
TowardLiberty
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Re: - now that tariffs are proving to work will Presidential candidates support tariffs?
Reply #80 - Jun 12th, 2019 at 2:14pm
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Seawolf wrote on Jun 12th, 2019 at 2:01pm:
Have you tried looking? 


Sure, this is one of my pet subjects. I'm half way waiting to see the claim made that US trade deficits reflect how much we're being "ripped off."

Quote:
Theft of technology is costly to our US manufactures, that is very obvious as the amount of time, resources and money that is put into a research for a new product.


Ok, I can see that but recall that I don't support IP laws and believe they limit innovation and progress.

Quote:
Any way, here is a blog about their behavior.

https://www.cfr.org/blog/us-china-trade-war-how-we-got-here


From this article:

Quote:
I also wanted to gather together, for my own use if nothing else, a set of references to the specific policies that China has pursued that have given rise to a set of serious complaints about China’s commercial policies. Set aside the “original sin” of ignoring China’s massive foreign exchange intervention from 2003 to 2008—and still large intervention in the years immediately after the global crisis. The core of the current complaint is that:

China has made it hard to produce abroad and sell to China and,
China has made it hard to invest in China in order to produce and sell in China if your firm isn’t Chinese.


I'll leave aside the "original sin" of subsidizing our living standards through a weaker Yuan and focus on the claim that China makes it hard to produce abroad and sell in China, or sell in China at all if your firm is not Chinese.

These are definitely lamentable actions but they aren't in and of themselves costing the US millions of dollars a year.

I would actually think those who complain about outsourcing US jobs would be happy to hear China makes it hard for foreign companies to produce and sell in China.

In my opinion, the far bigger crime is their human rights violations.
  

Open Trade, Open Borders, Taco Trucks on Every Corner

"It was the union of the anticapitalist forces of the Right and of the Left, the fusion of radical and conservative socialism, which drove out from Germany everything that was liberal.” F A Hayek
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patrick2
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Re: - now that tariffs are proving to work will Presidential candidates support tariffs?
Reply #81 - Jun 12th, 2019 at 2:14pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Jun 12th, 2019 at 2:02pm:
No, replication is an engine of progress.

IP limits the incentive to continue innovating the 2nd and 3rd generations of a product line. Why continue innovating when the government gives you an exclusive monopoly?

And it's not mere theory. Patent trolls buy up patents exclusively to litigate rather than for defensive reasons. That behavior ipso facto makes us poorer.



Simply not true.  Patents encourage other inventers to come up with a NEW, BETTER idea.
  
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TowardLiberty
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Re: - now that tariffs are proving to work will Presidential candidates support tariffs?
Reply #82 - Jun 12th, 2019 at 2:20pm
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petep wrote on Jun 12th, 2019 at 2:05pm:
TL innovation happens because we have property rights and patent rights.


Innovation occurred long before patents existed. I agree property rights are necessary.
Quote:
The entire game is based on I invest great time and money and I’m protected if I actually produce something that works. I have to sell as much as I can as fast as I can because there are a thousand other people who now are trying to beat me out with new innovative ideas they can own. And then someone else will leapfrog them.


That's not true. If you achieve patent protection, no one can beat you out unless they develop a completely different technology. Baring that, you've got a window of exclusive profit for the life of the patent. Look at the EpiPen.


Quote:
That is the reality. We have patent rights and look at the pace of innovation.

Without rights there is a better argument to be made that it would stagnate innovation. I develop x and everyone steals it and we all just sit there in the same place because what incentive is there to come up with something better.

The incentive exists without patents it's just without a guarantee profit period. Profitability is uncertain and risky.

I don't believe we need guarantees to pursue our innovative visions. We did it before patents and we will do it after them.
  

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"It was the union of the anticapitalist forces of the Right and of the Left, the fusion of radical and conservative socialism, which drove out from Germany everything that was liberal.” F A Hayek
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TowardLiberty
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Re: - now that tariffs are proving to work will Presidential candidates support tariffs?
Reply #83 - Jun 12th, 2019 at 2:23pm
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Seawolf wrote on Jun 12th, 2019 at 2:08pm:
Stealing is NOT replicating.  It is pure theft and cost our economy.  Again, the amount of time, energy and resources to develop a new product is then stolen and all hopes of revenue are lost.  You seem to be arguing for the bad practices of China and against our attempt to reign in their abuses that cost us.

Sure it is. If you reverse engineer a product and "steal" an idea, you've replicated and remixed it.

I'm arguing against IP, full stop.
  

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"It was the union of the anticapitalist forces of the Right and of the Left, the fusion of radical and conservative socialism, which drove out from Germany everything that was liberal.” F A Hayek
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TowardLiberty
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Re: - now that tariffs are proving to work will Presidential candidates support tariffs?
Reply #84 - Jun 12th, 2019 at 2:23pm
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petep wrote on Jun 12th, 2019 at 2:09pm:
Your theory only works in the ussr or Cuba where there is one supplier.


Nonsense.
  

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Seawolf
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Re: - now that tariffs are proving to work will Presidential candidates support tariffs?
Reply #85 - Jun 12th, 2019 at 2:25pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Jun 12th, 2019 at 2:14pm:
Sure, this is one of my pet subjects. I'm half way waiting to see the claim made that US trade deficits reflect how much we're being "ripped off."


Ok, I can see that but recall that I don't support IP laws and believe they limit innovation and progress.


From this article:


I'll leave aside the "original sin" of subsidizing our living standards through a weaker Yuan and focus on the claim that China makes it hard to produce abroad and sell in China, or sell in China at all if your firm is not Chinese.

These are definitely lamentable actions but they aren't in and of themselves costing the US millions of dollars a year.

I would actually think those who complain about outsourcing US jobs would be happy to hear China makes it hard for foreign companies to produce and sell in China.

In my opinion, the far bigger crime is their human rights violations.

We are going to have to disagree.  Stealing secrets is costly to our nation, whether it is military or industrial these thefts costs us taxpayers.  SO the question is, are tariffs effective in leveling the playing field?  I am all for protecting and minimizing our losses and creating as fair as a trade system as possible.
  

"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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TowardLiberty
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Re: - now that tariffs are proving to work will Presidential candidates support tariffs?
Reply #86 - Jun 12th, 2019 at 2:25pm
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petep wrote on Jun 12th, 2019 at 2:12pm:
Tl you seem to be arguing that having a patent locks all progress down when in fact it does the opposite


No, I am arguing that having a patent reduces the incentive to further innovate for the life of the patent. And I would also claim that it violates the private property rights of anyone who independently comes to the same idea, or who later seeks to replicate it.

Quote:
If I run a world record mile, it goes in the record books as my record. But that doesn’t prevent anyone else from trying to beat me with a batter time.


Indeed.

Quote:
And IF you happen to come up with something so good, that all the competition in the world can’t beat, you are still prohibited from behaving like a monopoly.

Not true. You can get a legal grant of monopoly. It's called a patent.
  

Open Trade, Open Borders, Taco Trucks on Every Corner

"It was the union of the anticapitalist forces of the Right and of the Left, the fusion of radical and conservative socialism, which drove out from Germany everything that was liberal.” F A Hayek
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Seawolf
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Re: - now that tariffs are proving to work will Presidential candidates support tariffs?
Reply #87 - Jun 12th, 2019 at 2:27pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Jun 12th, 2019 at 2:23pm:
Sure it is. If you reverse engineer a product and "steal" an idea, you've replicated and remixed it.

I'm arguing against IP, full stop.

Reverse engineering is not the same as stealing information through espionage.  Reverse engineering happens and is expected to happen, stealing company secrets of a recently released product or one in development is costly.  I know you understand this.
  

"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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TowardLiberty
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Re: - now that tariffs are proving to work will Presidential candidates support tariffs?
Reply #88 - Jun 12th, 2019 at 2:31pm
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Seawolf wrote on Jun 12th, 2019 at 2:25pm:
We are going to have to disagree.  Stealing secrets is costly to our nation, whether it is military or industrial these thefts costs us taxpayers. 

That's fine, we can agree to disagree.

Quote:
SO the question is, are tariffs effective in leveling the playing field?  I am all for protecting and minimizing our losses and creating as fair as a trade system as possible.


If you think of trade as between the US and China, then perhaps they are. But if you think of trade as between US firms/households and Chinese firms/households, then it seems less likely tariffs will do anything but create a new round of losses.


  

Open Trade, Open Borders, Taco Trucks on Every Corner

"It was the union of the anticapitalist forces of the Right and of the Left, the fusion of radical and conservative socialism, which drove out from Germany everything that was liberal.” F A Hayek
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TowardLiberty
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Re: - now that tariffs are proving to work will Presidential candidates support tariffs?
Reply #89 - Jun 12th, 2019 at 2:32pm
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Seawolf wrote on Jun 12th, 2019 at 2:27pm:
Reverse engineering is not the same as stealing information through espionage.  Reverse engineering happens and is expected to happen, stealing company secrets of a recently released product or one in development is costly.  I know you understand this.

Sure, there's a difference.
  

Open Trade, Open Borders, Taco Trucks on Every Corner

"It was the union of the anticapitalist forces of the Right and of the Left, the fusion of radical and conservative socialism, which drove out from Germany everything that was liberal.” F A Hayek
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