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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Group travels from Minnesota to Canada to buy $34 insulin that's for $380 in US (Read 1,291 times)
Seawolf
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Re: Group travels from Minnesota to Canada to buy $34 insulin that's for $380 in US
Reply #40 - Jul 10th, 2019 at 5:27pm
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Fiddler wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 4:23pm:
It's just that the nonsense you right-wing nitwits say offers so many opportunities ..



And there you go insulting me with your fables ..

Hate seems to consume your day with this right crap.  I mean this sincerely, obsessing over someone's political view is completely unhealthy.
  

"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Group travels from Minnesota to Canada to buy $34 insulin that's for $380 in US
Reply #41 - Jul 10th, 2019 at 6:36pm
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Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 3:39pm:
But none for differences in health outcome or costs, right?

Those are all based on the single payer system.

Has nothing to do with, for instance, the population density of the UK making it far easier, logistically, to more efficiently cover the population.

Nor does it have anything to do with diabetes rates, as an example, being nearly 3 times higher in the US as compared to the UK.

Nope. One single variable. The government provision of health insurance. But income differential is a complex thing that can't be summed up by just looking at the figures.

Got it.


Excellent post.

Limey. wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 4:36pm:
Are you seriously suggesting that transport costs make up such a proportion of healthcare product delivery (or that American logistics firms overcharge so much) that this explains the difference?

Really?


Population density doesn't only affect transport.

Think of it this way.  What is the average cost per resident of a small number of very large hospitals for London's 8 million people?  I bet there are a lot of economies of scale to be had with those few hospitals, right?

Now spread that same population (probably less) over the area of Montana, Wyoming, North Dakota, South Dakota and Nebraska.  How many hospitals do you think would be needed, each with their own specialty areas and emergency departments, per 8 million people?  A lot more, right?  A lot more land.  A lot more duplicated ERs.  A lot more structures.  Construction.  Accounting departments.  And on and on.

Pretty sure that was his point.  Not transportation.

Quote:
https://www.diabetes.org.uk/about_us/news_landing_page/uk-has-worlds-5th-highest...


Check the rankings.

The US and UK rates for type 1 diabetes- that's the one treated by insulin- are within 1 per 100,000 population.

The UK slightly out ranks the US.

We're 5; you're 6.

Insulin comes in titchy little vials. It's not going to make much difference to the delivery cost.



What about type 2 diabetes?  The one that is often brought on by unhealthy lifestyle?  Lifestyles that lead to all sorts of extremely costly medical needs?

forgotten centrist wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 4:50pm:
Not just the difference -- the "large" difference.  And remember, US geography hasn't changed but costs keep rising.  The rate of diabetes in the US is higher, but why does insulin cost so much more?  We're not just paying higher costs per person, we are paying higher costs per DOSE.

Healthcare outcomes are analyzed continuously, and hundreds of statistical data points go into the mix.  If there were a consistent reason why Americans are sicker or why our, uh, "medical transportation costs" are vastly higher, it would have come out.

Our problems are hiding in plain sight.  Prices are spiraling because industry stakeholders have captured the market AND the govt AND the regulatory process.  They are raising prices merely because they can.

It's the same with tuition.  The cost of putting a professor in a room with a bunch of students has not gone up.  But tuition has skyrocketed.


That is a huge part of it.  And government and the politicians controlling it are in the driver's seat.
  
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Rabbit_Reborn
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Re: Group travels from Minnesota to Canada to buy $34 insulin that's for $380 in US
Reply #42 - Jul 11th, 2019 at 6:54am
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Limey. wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 4:36pm:
Are you seriously suggesting that transport costs make up such a proportion of healthcare product delivery (or that American logistics firms overcharge so much) that this explains the difference?

Really?

1. No. I'm not saying that "logistics" of medical care "explains the difference". I'm saying "logistics" of medical care is part of the reason. Both examples I gave were listed pretty specifically as examples of the many variables which differentiate health care between societies.

2. When I referred to "logistics", I was referring to the broader definition of "logistics". Not just transportation of drugs. I'm referring to trying to provide health care to a far less dense population of people in terms of infrastructure required to effectively provide health care to individuals. There is no "North Dakota" in Britain. There are tiny towns that are 8-10 hours away from any city that has over 30,000 people. There is nothing that can compare to this in all of Europe, actually, until you get to the eastern edge. So there are far more facilities required to provide coverage to far fewer people. That's very expensive.

Limey. wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 4:36pm:
Check the rankings.

The US and UK rates for type 1 diabetes- that's the one treated by insulin- are within 1 per 100,000 population.

The UK slightly out ranks the US.

We're 5; you're 6.

Insulin comes in titchy little vials. It's not going to make much difference to the delivery cost.


It's interesting that you focused on Type 1 only. Perhaps that's a lack of understanding of the type 2, and how (at least in America), well over 90% of people who suffer from diabetes suffer from the type 2 variety. I don't know why you focused on type 1, though I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

The fact that the US has a diabetes rate 2-3 times higher than the UK, with the lions share of those people suffering from a preventable form of it, adds costs to our health care system that will exist regardless of who pays for the care.

The fact that the US pays more for health care than the UK, on an average and individual basis, is due to a number of factors. A huge number. This is one. And making an NHS for the US won't change a number of these variables.
  

Wadsworth wrote on Sep 19th, 2019 at 3:31pm:
We are talking about this government, aren't we?  If we were any other kind of government like China or NK, we would not even be having this discussion because you would not even be allowed to own a gun. 


Vypr wrote on Oct 15th, 2019 at 8:25am:
By all accounts Syria was somewhat calm.
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Re: Group travels from Minnesota to Canada to buy $34 insulin that's for $380 in US
Reply #43 - Jul 11th, 2019 at 8:59am
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crepe05 wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 11:25am:
Possibly my 20 years of smokling cigarettes.


So you had the option of not smoking and did it anyway .. 

As you mocked and shamed the ladies buying Canadian insulin, should you also be mocked and shamed for NOT having the willpower to NOT get cancer?

  

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Re: Group travels from Minnesota to Canada to buy $34 insulin that's for $380 in US
Reply #44 - Jul 11th, 2019 at 12:02pm
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I concentrated on type 1 diabetes because that's what the OP was about.


Incidentally, Canasa has a population density around 12% of the United States.


Average BMI in America is 36.2.

Canadians are fat too if less so at 27.

And yet insulin is cheaper there... hmm...
  

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Re: Group travels from Minnesota to Canada to buy $34 insulin that's for $380 in US
Reply #45 - Jul 11th, 2019 at 12:14pm
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Limey. wrote on Jul 11th, 2019 at 12:02pm:
I concentrated on type 1 diabetes because that's what the OP was about.

But you changed the nature of the discussion by making blanket statements about how "My country's system is way better than yours! Na na!"

So the discussion evolved into what makes comparing health care in different societies a complex thing.

And diabetes in the US is 2-3 times what it is in the UK. So it doesn't matter who pays for the healthcare, the healthcare will be more expensive for that variable, and for many others.

Limey. wrote on Jul 11th, 2019 at 12:02pm:
I Incidentally, Canasa has a population density around 12% of the United States.

And for that variable, health care provision is likely more expensive in Canada than it is in the UK. However, a huge amount of Canada isn't populated at all, so that impacts the discussion as well. You'd have to dig into a finer detail of the data with that.

Limey. wrote on Jul 11th, 2019 at 12:02pm:
And yet insulin is cheaper there... hmm...

There's no question that the monopoly power provided to patent holders allows for increasing prices on goods.

FDA approval of new drugs (or modifications to existing drugs) also costs a huge amount. Drug manufacturers make their profits to an incredible extent in the US. And since the marginal cost of producing the drug is generally pretty small, the companies can sell to foreign nations at a much reduced rate, demanded by the foreign country's government.

It's a problem. It's not one with an easy solution. Reducing that profit artificially in the US through single-payer means would have a negative impact on innovation coming out of the US.

It just would. Unless we are to believe, as many leftists seem to, that incentives do not play a role in human behavior.
  

Wadsworth wrote on Sep 19th, 2019 at 3:31pm:
We are talking about this government, aren't we?  If we were any other kind of government like China or NK, we would not even be having this discussion because you would not even be allowed to own a gun. 


Vypr wrote on Oct 15th, 2019 at 8:25am:
By all accounts Syria was somewhat calm.
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Re: Group travels from Minnesota to Canada to buy $34 insulin that's for $380 in US
Reply #46 - Jul 11th, 2019 at 12:29pm
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Vypr wrote on Jul 9th, 2019 at 5:15pm:
Group travels from Minnesota to Canada to buy $34 insulin that runs for $380 in the US
...


So effing what?  Undecided
  

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Re: Group travels from Minnesota to Canada to buy $34 insulin that's for $380 in US
Reply #47 - Jul 11th, 2019 at 12:36pm
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Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Jul 11th, 2019 at 12:14pm:
It's a problem. It's not one with an easy solution. Reducing that profit artificially in the US through single-payer means would have a negative impact on innovation coming out of the US.

It just would. Unless we are to believe, as many leftists seem to, that incentives do not play a role in human behavior.


A big part of the problem is that the healthcare industry is focusing an ever-larger share of its "innovation" into market-capture, patent-abuse, rent-seeking, etc.  There is no effective feedback loop preventing this abuse, because competition is low and dropping while demand is inelastic and soaring.

It could be said that Canada's providers are one of the only competitive forces still available to US consumers.  Ironic.  Socialized medicine in Canada is forcing US private industry to compete, and they don't like it.
  

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Re: Group travels from Minnesota to Canada to buy $34 insulin that's for $380 in US
Reply #48 - Jul 11th, 2019 at 12:41pm
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forgotten centrist wrote on Jul 11th, 2019 at 12:36pm:
A big part of the problem is that the healthcare industry is focusing an ever-larger share of its "innovation" into market-capture, patent-abuse, rent-seeking, etc.  There is no effective feedback loop preventing this abuse, because competition is low and dropping while demand is inelastic and soaring.

Sure. I can agree here.

But I just have to ask, as I do when discussing the AMA's artificial controls on the "licensing" of doctors, how to better address the supply?

Because all solutions seem to focus on expanding demand while artificially constricting prices. That has its own negative consequences.

So how do we increase the supply?
  

Wadsworth wrote on Sep 19th, 2019 at 3:31pm:
We are talking about this government, aren't we?  If we were any other kind of government like China or NK, we would not even be having this discussion because you would not even be allowed to own a gun. 


Vypr wrote on Oct 15th, 2019 at 8:25am:
By all accounts Syria was somewhat calm.
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Re: Group travels from Minnesota to Canada to buy $34 insulin that's for $380 in US
Reply #49 - Jul 11th, 2019 at 1:05pm
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Since we've been talking about insulin (as a case study), I don't think insulin prices have tripled because of some insulin shortage.  We know how to make insulin, we make it at scale, it's basically a commodity now.  But prices have spiraled up.

In this case, increasing supplies will have no effect.  Providers are charging more for reasons that have nothing to do with their supply chain.
  

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