Liberty News Forum
Political News Forum - Let your opinions be heard on current news and politics. Not for wimps!
Political Opinion Page - Recent Posts - LNF Forums LNF in the Age of Empowerment! Algorithm free!
Christian Forum - Religion Forum - Entertainment - Sports Forum
Military - A1 News Page - Computers Tech - Financial News - Bunker - Rasmussen Presidential Tracking Poll
The House - Off the Wall News - Page 2 - Rasmussen Reports Polls - Chat Room
Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HerePolitical Opinion Page - The Hot Seat › Group travels from Minnesota to Canada to buy $34 insulin that's for $380 in US
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7 8 9 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Group travels from Minnesota to Canada to buy $34 insulin that's for $380 in US (Read 1,207 times)
Rabbit_Reborn
LNF Speaker
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline

[i]Latin quote hinting
at my great intellect.[/i]

Posts: 25,742
Location: Midwest
Joined: Oct 17th, 2005
Re: Group travels from Minnesota to Canada to buy $34 insulin that's for $380 in US
Reply #50 - Jul 11th, 2019 at 1:31pm
Print Post  
forgotten centrist wrote on Jul 11th, 2019 at 1:05pm:
Since we've been talking about insulin (as a case study), I don't think insulin prices have tripled because of some insulin shortage.  We know how to make insulin, we make it at scale, it's basically a commodity now.  But prices have spiraled up.

In this case, increasing supplies will have no effect.  Providers are charging more for reasons that have nothing to do with their supply chain.

I'm thinking more broadly when I speak of supply.

Because the notion of massive pharmaceutical industry profits is generally untrue. They lag behind plenty of industries in terms of profit margins. Why? Even with skyrocketing prices?

Partially because their Internal Rate of Return (IRR) is generally very low, and has been dropping for some time.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnlamattina/2018/01/23/about-those-soaring-pharma...

When a drug company pursues a new drug that fails? It's massively expensive. And even if it ends up being a winner, the process is massively expensive.

So, looked at this way, the high prices Americans pay is subsidizing global innovation in pharmaceuticals. And cutting into that artificially, without taking steps to increase the overall supply of pharmaceuticals (streamlining approval requirements, removing barriers to entry, etc.), will have negative consequences on innovation, much of which will not be seen (from a Bastiat perspective).

So how to increase supply in a very broad sense? Because pharmaceuticals don't seem to be that much "greedier" than other industries in general, though they have a lot of different variables making them appear more greedy.
  

Wadsworth wrote on Sep 19th, 2019 at 3:31pm:
We are talking about this government, aren't we?  If we were any other kind of government like China or NK, we would not even be having this discussion because you would not even be allowed to own a gun. 


Vypr wrote on Oct 15th, 2019 at 8:25am:
By all accounts Syria was somewhat calm.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Limey.
LNF Speaker
The Writer's Croft
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline

I Love Liberty News Forum!

Posts: 21,645
Location: the County Palatine
Joined: Dec 14th, 2012
Re: Group travels from Minnesota to Canada to buy $34 insulin that's for $380 in US
Reply #51 - Jul 11th, 2019 at 1:34pm
Print Post  
Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Jul 11th, 2019 at 12:14pm:
But you changed the nature of the discussion by making blanket statements about how "My country's system is way better than yours! Na na!"

So the discussion evolved into what makes comparing health care in different societies a complex thing.

And diabetes in the US is 2-3 times what it is in the UK. So it doesn't matter who pays for the healthcare, the healthcare will be more expensive for that variable, and for many others.

And for that variable, health care provision is likely more expensive in Canada than it is in the UK. However, a huge amount of Canada isn't populated at all, so that impacts the discussion as well. You'd have to dig into a finer detail of the data with that.

There's no question that the monopoly power provided to patent holders allows for increasing prices on goods.

FDA approval of new drugs (or modifications to existing drugs) also costs a huge amount. Drug manufacturers make their profits to an incredible extent in the US. And since the marginal cost of producing the drug is generally pretty small, the companies can sell to foreign nations at a much reduced rate, demanded by the foreign country's government.

It's a problem. It's not one with an easy solution. Reducing that profit artificially in the US through single-payer means would have a negative impact on innovation coming out of the US.

It just would. Unless we are to believe, as many leftists seem to, that incentives do not play a role in human behavior.



I'm only semi serious.  Of course its complex, almost absurdly so. In your country and mine certain things are effectively un-doable. You can't socialise medicine because the world would literally end, we can't privatise because the world would literally end.

On incentives; not everyone operates a cold calculating profit/loss account in their head. I know researchers who are pretty much in live with the research and would probably pay to do it, working nights as Uber drivers or whores.


There's a degree of altruistic, national duty, honour in the NHS workforce not dissimilar to the ethos of the military. It's an important factor.
  

I have a new t shirt.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Rabbit_Reborn
LNF Speaker
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline

[i]Latin quote hinting
at my great intellect.[/i]

Posts: 25,742
Location: Midwest
Joined: Oct 17th, 2005
Re: Group travels from Minnesota to Canada to buy $34 insulin that's for $380 in US
Reply #52 - Jul 11th, 2019 at 1:42pm
Print Post  
Limey. wrote on Jul 11th, 2019 at 1:34pm:
I'm only semi serious.  Of course its complex, almost absurdly so. In your country and mine certain things are effectively un-doable. You can't socialise medicine because the world would literally end, we can't privatise because the world would literally end.

On incentives; not everyone operates a cold calculating profit/loss account in their head. I know researchers who are pretty much in live with the research and would probably pay to do it, working nights as Uber drivers or whores.


There's a degree of altruistic, national duty, honour in the NHS workforce not dissimilar to the ethos of the military. It's an important factor.

There are folks in certain fields that would do the work at even less pay, simply because they believe in the work.

And the military is a good example of this, where exemplary people perform difficult tasks for a measly wage.

But also dead-weight. A lot of it, at least if my recollection serves.

And when looking at an industry as a whole, the incentives in which the industry exists have an impact on all of the humans who provide the capital, spend the time, and potentially reap the rewards. We can't just rely on the noble spirits to guide a completely socialized industry, and expect it to work out.
  

Wadsworth wrote on Sep 19th, 2019 at 3:31pm:
We are talking about this government, aren't we?  If we were any other kind of government like China or NK, we would not even be having this discussion because you would not even be allowed to own a gun. 


Vypr wrote on Oct 15th, 2019 at 8:25am:
By all accounts Syria was somewhat calm.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
forgotten centrist
LNF Speaker
*****
Offline

bring back the middle
class!

Posts: 14,837
Joined: Sep 29th, 2004
Re: Group travels from Minnesota to Canada to buy $34 insulin that's for $380 in US
Reply #53 - Jul 11th, 2019 at 1:45pm
Print Post  
Limey. wrote on Jul 11th, 2019 at 1:34pm:
You can't socialise medicine because the world would literally end, we can't privatise because the world would literally end.


Post of the Day.

We can get the best of both worlds.
  

2017 dream team (junior member)
and now as friendly as Jasmine!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Limey.
LNF Speaker
The Writer's Croft
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline

I Love Liberty News Forum!

Posts: 21,645
Location: the County Palatine
Joined: Dec 14th, 2012
Re: Group travels from Minnesota to Canada to buy $34 insulin that's for $380 in US
Reply #54 - Jul 11th, 2019 at 2:38pm
Print Post  
forgotten centrist wrote on Jul 11th, 2019 at 1:45pm:
Post of the Day.

We can get the best of both worlds.


Do I get a certificate?
  

I have a new t shirt.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Limey.
LNF Speaker
The Writer's Croft
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline

I Love Liberty News Forum!

Posts: 21,645
Location: the County Palatine
Joined: Dec 14th, 2012
Re: Group travels from Minnesota to Canada to buy $34 insulin that's for $380 in US
Reply #55 - Jul 11th, 2019 at 2:51pm
Print Post  
Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Jul 11th, 2019 at 1:42pm:
There are folks in certain fields that would do the work at even less pay, simply because they believe in the work.

And the military is a good example of this, where exemplary people perform difficult tasks for a measly wage.

But also dead-weight. A lot of it, at least if my recollection serves.

And when looking at an industry as a whole, the incentives in which the industry exists have an impact on all of the humans who provide the capital, spend the time, and potentially reap the rewards. We can't just rely on the noble spirits to guide a completely socialized industry, and expect it to work out.


You're right.  We can't rely upon noble spirits.


In the much-vexed case of American health care systems any move towards something more moral and more rational would take a dose of leadership almost impossible to imagine. Your current Empty Clown won't do it.

We in Britain were lucky in the timing.

A generation torn apart by WW1 and the economic, social and political cataclysm following it saw their sons thrown in to WW2 and their middle years traumatised by existential threats, poverty, fear, hard work and dislocation.  They remembered 1918 and the failures of the political parties... they demanded and got what they wanted, which effectively meant the medical profession doing as it was told: treat us, for a salary we pay, regardless of our personal contribution.


Three of my great aunts were military nurses in WW2 and civilian before it. Their passion for the profession was evident to their dying days in the 1990s and 2000s and the NHS was a banner they were proud to work under.

You've not got that.

You won't socialise healthcare because the messages are not strong enough against the vested interests.


Read "the Citadel"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Citadel_(novel)


...yes it's propaganda but it's a very good piece of literature and powerful agitation in the mix.


Seriously, read it, the question of socialised healthcare in Western nations can't be properly understood without reference to the ideas in this work.

« Last Edit: Jul 11th, 2019 at 2:56pm by Limey. »  

I have a new t shirt.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Limey.
LNF Speaker
The Writer's Croft
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline

I Love Liberty News Forum!

Posts: 21,645
Location: the County Palatine
Joined: Dec 14th, 2012
Re: Group travels from Minnesota to Canada to buy $34 insulin that's for $380 in US
Reply #56 - Jul 11th, 2019 at 2:58pm
Print Post  
TL Westy you read it too.

I demand it  Grin


Can't think why I've not posted it up before...
  

I have a new t shirt.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Limey.
LNF Speaker
The Writer's Croft
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline

I Love Liberty News Forum!

Posts: 21,645
Location: the County Palatine
Joined: Dec 14th, 2012
Re: Group travels from Minnesota to Canada to buy $34 insulin that's for $380 in US
Reply #57 - Jul 11th, 2019 at 2:59pm
Print Post  
No Conservatives should read it. You're too stupid except for Patrick and Harry and Harry's dead.
  

I have a new t shirt.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ulysses
LNF Speaker
LNF Bunker
*****
Online

"I am the rightest of
rights" - Yasmin 8-24-19

Posts: 21,270
Location: God's Country
Joined: Feb 19th, 2018
Gender: Male
Re: Group travels from Minnesota to Canada to buy $34 insulin that's for $380 in US
Reply #58 - Jul 11th, 2019 at 3:11pm
Print Post  
BTW, insulin is not used just for type one diabetes conditions. It is also prescribed for type two diabetes patients, who depend on it for blood sugar control.

Also it is not a given that type 2 diabetes is the result of "unhealthy lifestyle choices" as contended earlier in this thread. There is evidence that it also has a significant genetic component, and there is also evidence that the condition leads to sugar cravings which in turn make it worse. There are lifestyle changes that may help to reduce or even reverse the condition, but they are rather draconian and tellingly, not required of those who do not have the syndrome in order to maintain proper blood sugar levels.

All evidence points to a genetic pre-disposition to poor blood sugar control and insulin resistance, which in a negative feedback cycle tends to make the condition even worse over time.

There is also evidence that the American diet, dependent as it is on fast food and sugary beverages and foods, is a main cause of the high rate of type two diabetes in this nation. An additional causative factor may also be the national paranoia about dietary fat, leading to excess carbohydrate consumption. That paranoia can also be traced to the heavily processed food industry, which pushed high-trans fat products like margarine and semi-liquid vegetable shortenings (Crisco) on the public in the 50's and 60'. It turns out the danger of dietary fat was largely due to these trans fats and the industrial engine that sold them to an unsuspecting public for profit.
  

Three Little Russian Troll Dolls

Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Limey.
LNF Speaker
The Writer's Croft
LNF Bunker
*****
Offline

I Love Liberty News Forum!

Posts: 21,645
Location: the County Palatine
Joined: Dec 14th, 2012
Re: Group travels from Minnesota to Canada to buy $34 insulin that's for $380 in US
Reply #59 - Jul 11th, 2019 at 5:32pm
Print Post  
Ulysses wrote on Jul 11th, 2019 at 3:11pm:
BTW, insulin is not used just for type one diabetes conditions. It is also prescribed for type two diabetes patients, who depend on it for blood sugar control.

Also it is not a given that type 2 diabetes is the result of "unhealthy lifestyle choices" as contended earlier in this thread. There is evidence that it also has a significant genetic component, and there is also evidence that the condition leads to sugar cravings which in turn make it worse. There are lifestyle changes that may help to reduce or even reverse the condition, but they are rather draconian and tellingly, not required of those who do not have the syndrome in order to maintain proper blood sugar levels.

All evidence points to a genetic pre-disposition to poor blood sugar control and insulin resistance, which in a negative feedback cycle tends to make the condition even worse over time.

There is also evidence that the American diet, dependent as it is on fast food and sugary beverages and foods, is a main cause of the high rate of type two diabetes in this nation. An additional causative factor may also be the national paranoia about dietary fat, leading to excess carbohydrate consumption. That paranoia can also be traced to the heavily processed food industry, which pushed high-trans fat products like margarine and semi-liquid vegetable shortenings (Crisco) on the public in the 50's and 60'. It turns out the danger of dietary fat was largely due to these trans fats and the industrial engine that sold them to an unsuspecting public for profit.


My type 1 came about because of a Serbian mortar bomb in 1994.
  

I have a new t shirt.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7 8 9
Send TopicPrint
 
Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HerePolitical Opinion Page - The Hot Seat › Group travels from Minnesota to Canada to buy $34 insulin that's for $380 in US

LNF Home - Political Opinion Page
LNF Forums

Christian Forum - Religion Forum - Sports Forum - Entertainment - House
Military, History - Cooking and Crafts - Creative Writing
Off the Wall News - Science Forum - Tech Gadgets - Financial News - Humor
Bunker - Page 2 - Page 3 - Page 4 - Chat Room





Drudge Report - News Max - Rush Limbaugh - FrontpageMag
Advertise on the LNF - Twitter LNF - LNF Archive - LNF News
LNF Blog
News and Political Links
Political Blogs
Add your website or blog
Political Columnists
Political Humor
A1 News Page
David Limbaugh
Political Frog
Conservatives Directory
President Trump Approval Poll
Presidential Party Election Poll
News forum posting, privacy policy and member rules