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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Mistakes happen. Just follow instructions. Good job civilian (Read 1,631 times)
Maestro
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Re: Mistakes happen. Just follow instructions. Good job civilian
Reply #60 - Aug 11th, 2019 at 7:55am
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JohnnyB1OFdaFEW wrote on Aug 11th, 2019 at 7:45am:
The point was, the civilian followed the instructions. Everything went fine and he understood and praised the police because they did the correct thing. His car was still on the stolen list.

1- Resistance against officers with guns on you, is a stupid choice. Stupid choices can get you killed.

As for question 2, I don't know. That's not the topic I'm presenting.


Abe wrote on Aug 11th, 2019 at 7:49am:
Smiley



Sometimes, on a forum like this, questions can cam across as antagonistic when they aren't meant to be. I really do like to ask questions to clarify. I try to avoid saying things like, "So, you think such-and such, then?" I mention this so that you both know when I ask this next question, I am asking, not stating what I think you actually believe.

Do you side with the British soldiers involved in the Boston Massacre? To use JBL's word, were the colonists involved "stupid"?
  

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Abe
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Re: Mistakes happen. Just follow instructions. Good job civilian
Reply #61 - Aug 11th, 2019 at 8:03am
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Maestro wrote on Aug 11th, 2019 at 7:55am:
Sometimes, on a forum like this, questions can cam across as antagonistic when they aren't meant to be. I really do like to ask questions to clarify. I try to avoid saying things like, "So, you think such-and such, then?" I mention this so that you both know when I ask this next question, I am asking, not stating what I think you actually believe.

Do you side with the British soldiers involved in the Boston Massacre? To use JBL's word, were the colonists involved "stupid"?



I wasn't singling you out. Your points have merit but are not related to this situation even though you will argue they are.

Here's the bottom line for me and you guys can sort it out however you wish.

Whether you are Libertarian, non-Libertarian, right, left, sideways, black, white or green, Republican or Democrat...

When a bunch of cops have guns trained on you and you know you didn't do anything wrong...or even if your did. It is a stupid move to try and stand on some principle.

When the triggers get pulled your principles won't save you...and YOU caused it.

The Boston Tea party is not similar to getting wrongly pulled over and deciding "I fancy myself as a colonist and I have my principles...I'll resist".

Likewise you are one person vs. a group of police...no one is dumping tea alongside you in revolt...and have the ability to flee as well.

You'll be quickly...dead. I see nothing comparable between this situation and the BTP. Great for a discussion but won't work in a real life situation as described in the OP.
« Last Edit: Aug 11th, 2019 at 8:11am by Abe »  

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Maestro
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Re: Mistakes happen. Just follow instructions. Good job civilian
Reply #62 - Aug 11th, 2019 at 8:10am
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Abe wrote on Aug 11th, 2019 at 8:03am:
I wasn't singling you out. Your points have merit but are not related to this situation even though you will argue they are.

Here's the bottom line for me and you guys can sort it out however you wish.

Whether you are Libertarian, non-Libertarian, right, left, sideways, black, white or green, Republican or Democrat...

When a bunch of cops have guns trained on you and you know you didn't do anything wrong...or even if your did. It is a stupid move to try and stand on some principle.

When the triggers get pulled your principles won't save you...and YOU caused it.

The Boston Tea party is not similar to getting wrongly pulled over and deciding "I fancy myself as a colonist and I have my principles...I'll resist".

Likewise you are one person vs. a group of police...no one is dumping tea alongside you in revolt.

You'll be quickly...dead.


Wait, I didn't ask about the Boston Tea Party. That's a different animal.
  

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Abe
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Re: Mistakes happen. Just follow instructions. Good job civilian
Reply #63 - Aug 11th, 2019 at 8:12am
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Maestro wrote on Aug 11th, 2019 at 8:10am:
Wait, I didn't ask about the Boston Tea Party. That's a different animal.


If that's all you took from what I said then I suggest you are looking to argue for argument's sake. I was clear...you still aren't.

You are right. I misread it as BTP. My mistake but the point is still valid.

Tell me when I should resist a group of police with guns trained. In such a situation do principles matter when in a split second you can be dead? Does hypocrisy matter at that moment? That was all JBL was asking or pointing out to begin with.

To use my favorite word from the past... tangents. Now if people want to discuss those perfectly valid tangents by all means do so. But JBL's point was clear enough to me.
« Last Edit: Aug 11th, 2019 at 8:22am by Abe »  

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Re: Mistakes happen. Just follow instructions. Good job civilian
Reply #64 - Aug 11th, 2019 at 8:37am
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Maestro wrote on Aug 10th, 2019 at 8:04am:
And that's the thing.

It seems to me that a lot of the non-Libertarians* making the "I need guns to defend myself against the government" argument don't really mean it.

When given real world examples, they usually fall back on "do what you're told" argument.

*Libertarians tend to be different. They rarely make the "do what you're told" argument.


Is the "rarely" part when the guns are being pointed at you?  Ye gads, even libertarians have good judgment some times, rarely but sometimes.   Grin
  
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Maestro
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Re: Mistakes happen. Just follow instructions. Good job civilian
Reply #65 - Aug 11th, 2019 at 8:40am
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Abe wrote on Aug 11th, 2019 at 8:12am:
If that's all you took from what I said then I suggest you are looking to argue for argument's sake. I was clear...you still aren't.

You are right. I misread it as BTP. My mistake but the point is still valid.

Tell me when I should resist a group of police with guns trained. In such a situation do principles matter when in a split second you can be dead? Does hypocrisy matter at that moment? That was all JBL was asking or pointing out to begin with.

To use my favorite word from the past... tangents. Now if people want to discuss those perfectly valid tangents by all means do so. But JBL's point was clear enough to me.


I think you misunderstand me. I'm leaving for church in a minute, so I have to keep this short for now.

I'm not trying to trap you into making a statement that I can then use to call you a hypocrite. I admit that my original post on this thread was snarky and I know I quoted JBL, but it really was directed at Archie. I wouldn't mention his name, but he already made his identity clear on this thread, so it's no big deal. His stance I find bewildering: He needs guns to protect himself from the government, but when that time comes, all of the cops and soldiers will join "his" side. That's nonsense (and I think he knows it) but he claims it anyway because he's an absolutist on the issues of trusting the police/military and distrusting the government, which is incompatible.

But JBL immediately claimed that he didn't hold Archie's stance and I doubt you do either.

With you two, I'm really just trying to have a conversation. I'm trying to see how you think. I've already said I think it is reasonable to both believe we should generally trust law enforcement and keep weapons as a last resort against a tyranny.

In the case of the Boston Massacre, we had citizens physically resisting the armed, legal authority and they got killed for it. Are they patriots? Fools? Something in between? I don't think there is a 100% "right" and a 100% "wrong" answer. It's far too gray for that. I'm just curious to see what people think.

Ok, so that wasn't very short. I really do have to leave. Talk to you later.
  

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Re: Mistakes happen. Just follow instructions. Good job civilian
Reply #66 - Aug 11th, 2019 at 9:56am
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Maestro wrote on Aug 11th, 2019 at 8:40am:
I think you misunderstand me. I'm leaving for church in a minute, so I have to keep this short for now.

I'm not trying to trap you into making a statement that I can then use to call you a hypocrite. I admit that my original post on this thread was snarky and I know I quoted JBL, but it really was directed at Archie. I wouldn't mention his name, but he already made his identity clear on this thread, so it's no big deal. His stance I find bewildering: He needs guns to protect himself from the government, but when that time comes, all of the cops and soldiers will join "his" side. That's nonsense (and I think he knows it) but he claims it anyway because he's an absolutist on the issues of trusting the police/military and distrusting the government, which is incompatible.

But JBL immediately claimed that he didn't hold Archie's stance and I doubt you do either.

With you two, I'm really just trying to have a conversation. I'm trying to see how you think. I've already said I think it is reasonable to both believe we should generally trust law enforcement and keep weapons as a last resort against a tyranny.

In the case of the Boston Massacre, we had citizens physically resisting the armed, legal authority and they got killed for it. Are they patriots? Fools? Something in between? I don't think there is a 100% "right" and a 100% "wrong" answer. It's far too gray for that. I'm just curious to see what people think.

Ok, so that wasn't very short. I really do have to leave. Talk to you later.




Abe wrote on Aug 10th, 2019 at 8:10am:
Do they make that argument or do they argue they need them as defense against the lunatics running around.

I've said this before. If they gov't decides to unleash the military on it's citizens and make it clear that those doing the bidding for the govt. along with their families are offered protection...an armed populace doesn't stand a chance.  That has often been countered with, "police, military, etc will never fire on their own" when push comes to shove.

I'm afraid we are drawing closer to finding out the answer.






Wink   Smiley
  

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Abe
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Re: Mistakes happen. Just follow instructions. Good job civilian
Reply #67 - Aug 11th, 2019 at 10:38am
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Not sure if you need an account to see this.

https://twitter.com/RepStevenSmith/status/1160551248476680192

Update:


  

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Re: Mistakes happen. Just follow instructions. Good job civilian
Reply #68 - Aug 11th, 2019 at 10:49am
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The problem here is not that people get shot for not doing what police say......The problem is that police will shoot you even if you are complying and just lie and say you were not complying
  

The most ridiculous statement ever from Lomelis
Lomelis wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 3:03am:
This is why people need to turn against the gov in general.  Only going to get worse.
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Abe
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Re: Mistakes happen. Just follow instructions. Good job civilian
Reply #69 - Aug 11th, 2019 at 10:51am
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Wadsworth wrote on Aug 11th, 2019 at 10:49am:
The problem here is not that people get shot for not doing what police say......The problem is that police will shoot you even if you are complying and just lie and say you were not complying


Most wear cams. The exception isn't the rule. Let's say you're right...how do you solve it?
  

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