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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Pakistan is going green (Read 124 times)
Seawolf
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Re: Pakistan is going green
Reply #10 - Aug 14th, 2019 at 2:09pm
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forgotten centrist wrote on Aug 14th, 2019 at 1:32pm:
Our actions seem to stand in contrast.  We are hobbling our environmental initiatives, knee-capping the regulatory services, and vigorously promoting fossil-burning.  We're even taking out our own engangered species act.  When emerging economies like Pakistan, China, and India are doing more pound-for-pound, and are leading nationwide campaigns while we hem and haw over bag taxes and refuse to admit the globe is warming -- it means we are pointed in the wrong direction.

China!!  Honestly!?  China is one of the world's worst polluters.  Sorry, not buying it.  I will state this again, I will never suport government take over of our business through so called green initiatives.  We are ASSUMING that science can successfully alter our climate despite never demonstrating this.  I have yet to see any study that shows them predicting the global temp they think they could achieve.
  

"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

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Re: Pakistan is going green
Reply #11 - Aug 14th, 2019 at 2:10pm
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Demos wrote on Aug 14th, 2019 at 1:50pm:
Nominally. According your stat, we've been planting 1.6 billion trees for several years now. Seems like Pakistan has some catching to do.

These nations are implementing alternative energy sources: wind, solar, etc? And in terms of endangered species, Chinese markets are a significant factor in species endangerment.

Let's not pretend that these are some kind of example setting nations.

Excellent points.
  

"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Re: Pakistan is going green
Reply #12 - Aug 14th, 2019 at 2:26pm
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Demos wrote on Aug 14th, 2019 at 1:50pm:
Nominally. According your stat, we've been planting 1.6 billion trees for several years now. Seems like Pakistan has some catching to do.

These nations are implementing alternative energy sources: wind, solar, etc? And in terms of endangered species, Chinese markets are a significant factor in species endangerment.

Let's not pretend that these are some kind of example setting nations.


First, half our planting is done on existing commercial forestry plantations.  This is environmentally helpful, but not "new planting" in the same vein as this Pakistani initiative.

Second, we outsource a good deal of our real pollution when we buy commodities from Brazil and Indonesia, where large scale deforestation happens to meet the needs of US buyers for things like beef and palm oil.

Third, Pakistan is less that 10% the size of the US, with a much higher population density, so this is a big movement.

China has been planting trees aggressively for years, in response to desertification.  They are undertaking a similar effort to turn away from coal, in response to heavy metal contamination of their water and meager farmland, though this effort has lagged the whole tree thing.  And China has been building solar and installing solar capacity at a much higher rate than the US -- on top of their national embrace of dumb-and-cheap green tech like rooftop water heaters.

Yes, the US has done a lot to clean up our act, but current trends (not just under Trump) have us working at cross-purposes with the green tide sweeping the world.
  

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Re: Pakistan is going green
Reply #13 - Aug 14th, 2019 at 2:33pm
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forgotten centrist wrote on Aug 14th, 2019 at 2:26pm:
First, half our planting is done on existing commercial forestry plantations.  This is environmentally helpful, but not "new planting" in the same vein as this Pakistani initiative.

Second, we outsource a good deal of our real pollution when we buy commodities from Brazil and Indonesia, where large scale deforestation happens to meet the needs of US buyers for things like beef and palm oil.

Third, Pakistan is less that 10% the size of the US, with a much higher population density, so this is a big movement.

China has been planting trees aggressively for years, in response to desertification.  They are undertaking a similar effort to turn away from coal, in response to heavy metal contamination of their water and meager farmland, though this effort has lagged the whole tree thing.  And China has been building solar and installing solar capacity at a much higher rate than the US -- on top of their national embrace of dumb-and-cheap green tech like rooftop water heaters.

Yes, the US has done a lot to clean up our act, but current trends (not just under Trump) have us working at cross-purposes with the green tide sweeping the world.

If the world jumped off a bridge would you follow them?  I could care less what the rest of the world is doing and more about what we are doing.
  

"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

Charles Carroll, signer of the DOI
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Demos
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Re: Pakistan is going green
Reply #14 - Aug 14th, 2019 at 2:44pm
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forgotten centrist wrote on Aug 14th, 2019 at 2:26pm:
First, half our planting is done on existing commercial forestry plantations.  This is environmentally helpful, but not "new planting" in the same vein as this Pakistani initiative.

And? We have an active commercial forest industry. If we're looking for models, we should be looking at countries like Germany which is analogous to our situation and which has been at the forefront of forest management practice, and whom we've been learning from for a long time.

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Second, we outsource a good deal of our real pollution when we buy commodities from Brazil and Indonesia, where large scale deforestation happens to meet the needs of US buyers for things like beef and palm oil.

Then maybe replanting here isn't the issue.

Quote:
Yes, the US has done a lot to clean up our act, but current trends (not just under Trump) have us working at cross-purposes with the green tide sweeping the world.

Trump won't be in office forever, and state government trends are working against his administrative edicts, which can be as easily undone as he's undone Obama's.
  
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Re: Pakistan is going green
Reply #15 - Aug 14th, 2019 at 3:59pm
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Seawolf wrote on Aug 14th, 2019 at 1:13pm:
We do not?  I have been overseas and can speak first hand about us, we are a very green society and self-conscious about our environment.  Just because we do not go all in on the left's desire to take over our economy does not mean that we are below standards when compared to the rest of the world.


No offense, Seawolf, but what are you smoking?

Americans have the most unsustainable lifestyle of any group on the planet.
  


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Re: Pakistan is going green
Reply #16 - Aug 14th, 2019 at 4:12pm
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Frank1 wrote on Aug 14th, 2019 at 3:59pm:
Americans have the most unsustainable lifestyle of any group on the planet.



Frank.. I believe we've found agreement ..
  

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Re: Pakistan is going green
Reply #17 - Aug 14th, 2019 at 4:29pm
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Demos wrote on Aug 14th, 2019 at 2:44pm:
And? We have an active commercial forest industry. If we're looking for models, we should be looking at countries like Germany which is analogous to our situation and which has been at the forefront of forest management practice, and whom we've been learning from for a long time.

Then maybe replanting here isn't the issue.

Trump won't be in office forever, and state government trends are working against his administrative edicts, which can be as easily undone as he's undone Obama's.


We have a mature and advanced forestry industry.  Not as hyper-efficient as the Germans, but it's solid, except for the fact that we're still cutting our own old-growth forests every year.  For some reason we refuse to stop doing that, which undermines our calls to get countries like Brazil to stop cutting theirs.

But we are wasteful with all our other land.  In Germany they plant trees on every piece of open ground.  Got a traffic circle or a triangle formed by a railroad crossing?  Boom, trees.  And they are famously tight with their zoning laws, which allows them to max out tree planting on open grounds.

Every city should have an active tree-planting campaign.  Every rural area should set up tree farms.  Every riverine and desert edge should be banked with local tree species.  And every suburban house owner who chooses nothing but open grass should feel some shame, or be prodded with some incentive to plant.

And this isn't just about Trump.  Obama could have done this too, but didn't.  He spent his eco-capital on national monuments, which Trump has easily torn down.  Obama should have known better.  And the Clintons, as far as I'm aware, were content to outsource their green-whatever to Al Gore, and just keep the money presses running.
  

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Re: Pakistan is going green
Reply #18 - Aug 14th, 2019 at 4:45pm
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forgotten centrist wrote on Aug 14th, 2019 at 4:29pm:
Every rural area should set up tree farms.

Having grown up in East Texas, I know that area has a lot of tree farms. Primarily for replanting for commercials reasons, but they provide (for free) and sell trees for planting. 

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Every riverine and desert edge should be banked with local tree species.  And every suburban house owner who chooses nothing but open grass should feel some shame, or be prodded with some incentive to plant.

Well, it's not just about feeling shame. It about management of water resources as well. Personally, my yard is dead right now (which unfortunately may eventually mean my blackberry bush though I water it intermittently).

And speaking of managing water resources, some trees are water hogs, such as ash junipers (aka cedars) - an invasive species littering Austin and much of the Hill Country. So, it's not just about planting trees, but maintaining a balanced ecosystem.

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Obama could have done this too, but didn't.  He spent his eco-capital on national monuments, which Trump has easily torn down.  Obama should have known better.

Regardless of whether he knew better, he did it because he faces the same situation as Trump: a deadlocked and uncooperative Congress. 
  
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Re: Pakistan is going green
Reply #19 - Aug 14th, 2019 at 5:31pm
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Frank1 wrote on Aug 14th, 2019 at 3:59pm:
No offense, Seawolf, but what are you smoking?

Americans have the most unsustainable lifestyle of any group on the planet.


We have agreed a few times before
  


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