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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Permanent State and the Intelligence Community are Dangerous (Read 788 times)
Fiddler
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Re: The Permanent State and the Intelligence Community are Dangerous
Reply #30 - Nov 7th, 2019 at 4:00pm
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Queshank wrote on Nov 7th, 2019 at 3:06pm:
No they don't.    But the operative word is "allegedly."

And JFK was allegedly killed by a second gunman.  If that's someone's opinion, probably nothing I can do to shake that either.


Nope.  But there's a very good chance if Trump politically survives being taken out by people able to get back at you "six ways from Sunday," future politicians might be emboldened to try.

Queshank




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Queshank
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Re: The Permanent State and the Intelligence Community are Dangerous
Reply #31 - Nov 7th, 2019 at 4:45pm
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Fiddler wrote on Nov 7th, 2019 at 4:00pm:


What?

Honestly Fiddler, the only thing I said that you're responding to that could be considered controversial is me pointing out I believe Lee Harvey Oswald killed JFK. 

Is that a conspiracy theory now these days?  Have the intelligence services so blown their credibility with the American people that it's now considered crazy to believe there was *no* second gunman on the grassy knoll?

Consider my mind blown.

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wyattstorch2004
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Re: The Permanent State and the Intelligence Community are Dangerous
Reply #32 - Nov 7th, 2019 at 8:53pm
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Vypr wrote on Nov 7th, 2019 at 12:13am:
Roll Eyes

Is CVS a "permanent corporation" because their structure and people persist from CEO to CEO? Such an ominous term! "Permanent state".

We are to believe that simply by PERSISTING OVER TIME, the "permanent state" is a force for evil and outside of all control.

In any event, because our country persists and doesn't collapse into a primal stew of slime after each election, we would assume that the various parts of the govt necessary for continuity would.....(wait for it).....continue. And we would further assume that the buck stops with the elected officials tasked to put oversight, controls and safeguards in place to make sure that the federal govt acts according to stated policy and expectations.

Some people have an incredibly strong need for it to be a fact that there is a secret govt within the govt, totally out of control and engaging in endless evil, endless war, human sacrifice, etc. These people need that enemy, because the boring truth of the matter is our elected officials own it. But with an evil entity secretly pulling the strings, it takes away responsibility and it enables us to justify all kinds of bullshit in the name of fighting the Deep StateTM.


Trump was elected on what he called "draining the swamp".  What that meant to many people was that he would be eliminating the unaccountable bureaucrats that politicians just allow to run things they way they want.  Trump was going to change that.  And before he even got into office they began fighting back.

You say the buck stops with the executive.  OK.  But if the CVS CEO implements policy against harassment and the long term employees decide they want to continue harassing can you really blame the CEO?

Especially if those employees decide they will railroad that incoming CEO with made up stories and non-stop investigations with questionable (at best) provenance.

The list is long.  Strock, Page, Brennan, the latest whistleblower and his lawyer, the Obama administration, Mueller, Comey, Ohr, Clapper, the anonymous bureaucrat that stated in the NYT that people in government are actively working against the Trump agenda and now has a book coming out, and on and on.  And when the executive -- where you say the buck stops -- tries to stop this group, everyone clutches their pearls and screams obstruction and impeachment and cycle starts again.

It is so obvious and predictable.  When this latest whistleblower claim came out of course the impeachment machine was already fueled up and ready to go as if they saw it coming and decided to get it rolling before the info officially got to them.  And what happens when Trump...the executive...where the buck stops...tries to control his staff?  Schiff et. al. start on again about OBSTRUCTION!!!!!

Again, what they are doing is obvious and predictable.

And after years of constant Russia and now impeachment talk and efforts sucking all the air out of the room, these establishment groups deserve (and are working toward) another Trump electoral win.

Demos wrote on Nov 7th, 2019 at 2:53pm:
Except that this wasn't - allegedly - done for any policy reason or public benefit, but for personal benefit.

And I think you would agree that past actions don't excuse Trump's.

We can place these concerns on a continuum, imo. Trump and his issues are temporary. The issues described in the OP are a longer term problem and won't change without effective oversight, which is sorely lacking. For example, does anyone think Congress is really going to do anything about this:

CIA-Backed Afghan Paramilitaries Behind Unlawful Killing Surge

Nope.


As noted, this "personal gain" argument is an opinion.  Many would consider investigating corruption of a past presidential administration and the 2016 election interference to be in the national interest.  A member of a previous administration shouldn't be able to avoid scrutiny by simply running for president, should they?
  
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Re: The Permanent State and the Intelligence Community are Dangerous
Reply #33 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 3:48am
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Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Nov 6th, 2019 at 7:39am:
Trump, professional narcissist and bad president, did not make friends with the intelligence community when he campaigned and then when he entered office.

He also expressed, more so than any sitting president, a desire to end forever wars, even as he admittedly has done next to nothing to stop the forever wars.

Brennan, former head of the CIA, was dismissed by Trump. The man who armed ISIS and never met a war he didn't masturbate to, made the media rounds and currently sits as the senior national security and intelligence analyst at NBC/MSNBC. He has called Trump "treasonous" for what Trump did in Helsinki.

James Comey, former head of the FBI, was fired by Trump. He had brought the Steele Dossier to Trump and did not inform him of who funded the Dossier. My speculation, based on plenty of evidence from the history of the FBI, was that this Dossier was a subtle attempt to blackmail Trump. Trump has made similar statements. Trump was having none of it, likely because he knew it was bulls**t. He fired Comey not long after.

Others, like Phillip Mudd, speak to the genuine ire that former (and assumedly current) members of the intelligence community have for Trump. His rants on cable news are legendary in their absurdity.


https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2018/08/18/phil-mudd-paris-dennard-security-...

Peter Strzok and Lisa Page had a text conversation which included Strzok saying "we'll stop it", with regards to Trump and his then-potential election as president. He laughably responded to questions on that line as an assertion that the American people would not allow it. He was just speaking for Americans!

These are agencies where lies, propaganda, regime change, and war are the basic tools of the trade. They hold immense power worldwide and domestically.

I don't think Trump is in any way a libertarian hero, but he has (to his credit, in my opinion), butted heads with these secretive organizations that have historically created chaos abroad.

And so why shouldn't I believe that the constant investigations which have occurred are simply a deliberate output of these exact circumstances? It has been constant investigation into matters which had little to no actual evidence.

Constant investigation. And the recent leaks seem to be from, surprisingly, a member of the CIA who heard second hand about a telephone conversation.

That seems something I should be far more concerned with over Trump asking the Ukrainian government to look into something that I believe was 100% corrupt as well. No f***ing military aid should be given to Ukraine, so why would I care if that was held back, especially when compared to what I believe the permanent state is attempting to do here?


If this was 2002, when I first joined LNF, I would have called you a conspiracy nut. But over the years, I have begun to realize just how corrupt and untrustworthy our government really is. It doesn’t really matter what political party is in charge.

I’ve either become very jaded in my passing years, or I’m simply less naive. Probably a bit of both.
  


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Re: The Permanent State and the Intelligence Community are Dangerous
Reply #34 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 4:38am
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wyattstorch2004 wrote on Nov 7th, 2019 at 8:53pm:
Trump was elected on what he called "draining the swamp".  What that meant to many people was that he would be eliminating the unaccountable bureaucrats that politicians just allow to run things they way they want.  Trump was going to change that.  And before he even got into office they began fighting back.

You say the buck stops with the executive.  OK.  But if the CVS CEO implements policy against harassment and the long term employees decide they want to continue harassing can you really blame the CEO?

Especially if those employees decide they will railroad that incoming CEO with made up stories and non-stop investigations with questionable (at best) provenance.

The list is long.  Strock, Page, Brennan, the latest whistleblower and his lawyer, the Obama administration, Mueller, Comey, Ohr, Clapper, the anonymous bureaucrat that stated in the NYT that people in government are actively working against the Trump agenda and now has a book coming out, and on and on.  And when the executive -- where you say the buck stops -- tries to stop this group, everyone clutches their pearls and screams obstruction and impeachment and cycle starts again.

It is so obvious and predictable.  When this latest whistleblower claim came out of course the impeachment machine was already fueled up and ready to go as if they saw it coming and decided to get it rolling before the info officially got to them.  And what happens when Trump...the executive...where the buck stops...tries to control his staff?  Schiff et. al. start on again about OBSTRUCTION!!!!!

Again, what they are doing is obvious and predictable.

And after years of constant Russia and now impeachment talk and efforts sucking all the air out of the room, these establishment groups deserve (and are working toward) another Trump electoral win.


As noted, this "personal gain" argument is an opinion.  Many would consider investigating corruption of a past presidential administration and the 2016 election interference to be in the national interest.  A member of a previous administration shouldn't be able to avoid scrutiny by simply running for president, should they?


Of course investigating corruption would be of national interest.  And there is an established way to provide oversight and transparency where you don't look like a corrupt POS.

  

Ignorant Blessings from Wads:

Wadsworth wrote on Feb 19th, 2019 at 9:18am:
Regulations are designed to protect the consumer and the worker.  If it doesn’t,it is not a regulation.



"Watched it.  A shotgun is for long ranged shooting.  That is why hunters like them.  An AR-15 is not.  That video was misleading.
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Re: The Permanent State and the Intelligence Community are Dangerous
Reply #35 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 6:11am
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Former CIA director admits to deep state, praises its existence and efforts to take down Trump, and mentions that these holy people are working towards a “higher purpose”. 

“Thank God for the Deep State.”

  

Wadsworth wrote on Sep 19th, 2019 at 3:31pm:
We are talking about this government, aren't we?  If we were any other kind of government like China or NK, we would not even be having this discussion because you would not even be allowed to own a gun. 


Vypr wrote on Oct 15th, 2019 at 8:25am:
By all accounts Syria was somewhat calm.
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Re: The Permanent State and the Intelligence Community are Dangerous
Reply #36 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 9:06am
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wyattstorch2004 wrote on Nov 7th, 2019 at 8:53pm:
As noted, this "personal gain" argument is an opinion.  Many would consider investigating corruption of a past presidential administration and the 2016 election interference to be in the national interest.  A member of a previous administration shouldn't be able to avoid scrutiny by simply running for president, should they?

And there is an established process for that through our treaty with Ukraine.
  
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Queshank
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Re: The Permanent State and the Intelligence Community are Dangerous
Reply #37 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:39am
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Demos wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 9:06am:
And there is an established process for that through our treaty with Ukraine.


Don't you think that's an ironic point to try to make in a thread that's literally all about how untrustworthy the "established processes" are?

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Re: The Permanent State and the Intelligence Community are Dangerous
Reply #38 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:45am
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Queshank wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:39am:
Don't you think that's an ironic point to try to make in a thread that's literally all about how untrustworthy the "established processes" are?

Queshank


Say Q..?   Will you turn this upside down for me. ?   . .

  

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Re: The Permanent State and the Intelligence Community are Dangerous
Reply #39 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:52am
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Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 6:11am:
Former CIA director admits to deep state, praises its existence and efforts to take down Trump, and mentions that these holy people are working towards a “higher purpose”. 

“Thank God for the Deep State.”



What has horrified me the most in the past few years is watching the leftist faithful nod soberly along with these highly trained, professional propagandists.

"The Truth Will Make You Free" he trumpets ... in an environment where heads of the intelligence communities have multiple times been busted for lying to the American people just in the past 5 years *alone.*

Queshank
  

The question isn't whether or not we're descended from monkeys.  The question is, when are we going to stop descending?
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