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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Permanent State and the Intelligence Community are Dangerous (Read 792 times)
Vypr
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Re: The Permanent State and the Intelligence Community are Dangerous
Reply #60 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 4:07pm
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That there is a murderous Deep StateTM, completely beyond the control of our elected Representatives and murdering millions, is axiomatic to the world-view of some to justify their ends-means support of Trump. If that Deep State idea is found to be flawed or wrong, it upends their entire argument. Therefore, no matter what, no ground can be given on the Deep State as King-maker/King-slayer/Evil Behind-the-Scenes Master of Everything. That the Deep State as Secret Puppet-Master has been embraced by the far left at times, and now the far right, merely shows how conspiracy theories and shortcuts that allow us to be lazy in our analysis of complex subjects knows no boundary or party, partisanship or ideology. Everyone loves a good conspiracy theory because it makes our difficult world easier to understand. It can also give us handy enemies, because some people thrive through their perceived persecution by their enemies (Trump, for example). Some people just need those shortcuts and they will NEVER give them up.
  

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Demos
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Re: The Permanent State and the Intelligence Community are Dangerous
Reply #61 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 4:18pm
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Some interesting numbers...

Quote:
Which Democratic Candidates Are National Security Employees Opening Their Wallets for?

While former U.S. Vice President Joe Biden and Sen. Elizabeth Warren top most 2020 presidential democratic primary polls, the candidates of choice for most national security employees are Sen. Bernie Sanders and Mayor Pete Buttigieg.

Foreign Policy examined how much money was donated to campaign committees from employees of the State Department, the military, the Department of Homeland Security, and the Justice Department, drawing on data from the Center for Responsive Politics. When combining contribution amounts together, Sanders is the biggest beneficiary of national security support, followed by Buttigieg and Warren. Democratic front-runner Biden and President Donald Trump trail behind those candidates, ranking no higher than third for any one department.

The numbers reflect 2019 contributions received through Sept. 30. Donations from employees include those made by their spouses. Foreign Policy tallied data for candidates who were still running as of Nov. 8.

Source
  
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Re: The Permanent State and the Intelligence Community are Dangerous
Reply #62 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 4:55pm
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Vypr wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 4:07pm:
That there is a murderous Deep StateTM, completely beyond the control of our elected Representatives and murdering millions, is axiomatic to the world-view of some to justify their ends-means support of Trump. If that Deep State idea is found to be flawed or wrong, it upends their entire argument. Therefore, no matter what, no ground can be given on the Deep State as King-maker/King-slayer/Evil Behind-the-Scenes Master of Everything. That the Deep State as Secret Puppet-Master has been embraced by the far left at times, and now the far right, merely shows how conspiracy theories and shortcuts that allow us to be lazy in our analysis of complex subjects knows no boundary or party, partisanship or ideology. Everyone loves a good conspiracy theory because it makes our difficult world easier to understand. It can also give us handy enemies, because some people thrive through their perceived persecution by their enemies (Trump, for example). Some people just need those shortcuts and they will NEVER give them up.

The Deep State is admitting they exist.

They’re telling you. They don’t feel the need to hide it anymore.
  

Wadsworth wrote on Sep 19th, 2019 at 3:31pm:
We are talking about this government, aren't we?  If we were any other kind of government like China or NK, we would not even be having this discussion because you would not even be allowed to own a gun. 


Vypr wrote on Oct 15th, 2019 at 8:25am:
By all accounts Syria was somewhat calm.
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Rabbit_Reborn
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Re: The Permanent State and the Intelligence Community are Dangerous
Reply #63 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 5:13pm
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Vypr wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 4:07pm:
That there is a murderous Deep StateTM, completely beyond the control of our elected Representatives and murdering millions, is axiomatic to the world-view of some to justify their ends-means support of Trump. If that Deep State idea is found to be flawed or wrong, it upends their entire argument. Therefore, no matter what, no ground can be given on the Deep State as King-maker/King-slayer/Evil Behind-the-Scenes Master of Everything. That the Deep State as Secret Puppet-Master has been embraced by the far left at times, and now the far right, merely shows how conspiracy theories and shortcuts that allow us to be lazy in our analysis of complex subjects knows no boundary or party, partisanship or ideology. Everyone loves a good conspiracy theory because it makes our difficult world easier to understand. It can also give us handy enemies, because some people thrive through their perceived persecution by their enemies (Trump, for example). Some people just need those shortcuts and they will NEVER give them up.

When Trump officials lie under investigation, even if it’s just the wrong month that something occurred, they’re going to jail.

What happens when intelligence officials lie to congress? What happened to Clapper? For a lie involving illegal surveillance of all of us?

Nothing.

You’ll avoid this, because it doesn’t fit. But it’s real.
  

Wadsworth wrote on Sep 19th, 2019 at 3:31pm:
We are talking about this government, aren't we?  If we were any other kind of government like China or NK, we would not even be having this discussion because you would not even be allowed to own a gun. 


Vypr wrote on Oct 15th, 2019 at 8:25am:
By all accounts Syria was somewhat calm.
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Vypr
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Re: The Permanent State and the Intelligence Community are Dangerous
Reply #64 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 5:36pm
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Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 5:13pm:
When Trump officials lie under investigation, even if it’s just the wrong month that something occurred, they’re going to jail.

What happens when intelligence officials lie to congress? What happened to Clapper? For a lie involving illegal surveillance of all of us?

Nothing.

You’ll avoid this, because it doesn’t fit. But it’s real.

No, most of these Trump officials will NOT go to jail. Just like most Obama officials did not go to jail. A few will, but mostly not. Just like most Bush officials did not go to jail. A few will, but mostly not.

Why doesn't our elected body of representatives hold lying bureaucrats accountable? Are the reps secretly wired with little explosive charges that will detonate and kill them if they step out of line? If an intel official lies, charge him, or at least remove him. It is the RESPONSIBILITY of the Congress to hold people accountable if the executive is giving them a pass. Further, the POTUS is elected and has the ability to hold people accountable. It is our elected representatives who bear the responsibility to keep the bureaucrats in check. I know this sucks and that you desperately believe that vast dark forces control everything behind the curtains, but they don't. We merely have a Congress and POTUS not acting according to their Constitutional responsibility. People lie. They do it all the time. Lying bureaucrats not being held to account is not evidence that our entire system is a sham hiding the truth of our unwitting enslavement to our evil intel overloads. It is evidence that the people we elect need to do their jobs.

If we the people are murdering millions, then we the people need look no further than the mirror for responsibility. Just like with 9-11. Our elected officials abused the intel, warped the intel, demanded the intel support their pre-conceived ideas and plans. You say so often that all of the Presidents over the last XX number of years are war criminals. I would say you can't leave out Congress, the intel people that supported them, the military people that followed their orders and killed countless women and children along with the terrorists/enemies/etc., the media that hyped it all and the people that voted the perpetrators right back into office.
  

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Re: The Permanent State and the Intelligence Community are Dangerous
Reply #65 - Nov 9th, 2019 at 6:15am
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Vypr wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 5:36pm:
No, most of these Trump officials will NOT go to jail. Just like most Obama officials did not go to jail. A few will, but mostly not. Just like most Bush officials did not go to jail. A few will, but mostly not.

Some do go to prison. Some already have. A lot have been charged.

For lying to investigators.

Clapper lied directly to the Senate Intelligence Committee.

No charges. Nothing. Why?
  

Wadsworth wrote on Sep 19th, 2019 at 3:31pm:
We are talking about this government, aren't we?  If we were any other kind of government like China or NK, we would not even be having this discussion because you would not even be allowed to own a gun. 


Vypr wrote on Oct 15th, 2019 at 8:25am:
By all accounts Syria was somewhat calm.
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Re: The Permanent State and the Intelligence Community are Dangerous
Reply #66 - Nov 11th, 2019 at 9:58pm
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Demos wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 9:06am:
And there is an established process for that through our treaty with Ukraine.


OK.  But that doesn't really support the "personal gain" argument I was responding to.
  
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Demos
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Re: The Permanent State and the Intelligence Community are Dangerous
Reply #67 - Nov 12th, 2019 at 10:03am
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wyattstorch2004 wrote on Nov 11th, 2019 at 9:58pm:
OK.  But that doesn't really support the "personal gain" argument I was responding to.

It addresses your question of whether or not a candidate for President should be able to avoid scrutiny. If rooting out corruption is the motive, then there is an appropriate process for that.

The steps taken by the administration suggest that wasn't the motive. Going outside the legal bounds, involving Giuliani, and holding up appropriated funds in an - alleged - attempt to bribe or extort another party into investigating a political rival speaks more to personal benefit, i.e., benefiting your political campaign, than it does an interest in prosecuting corruption (since what's been alleged would be an example of corrupt behavior).
  
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Vypr
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Re: The Permanent State and the Intelligence Community are Dangerous
Reply #68 - Nov 12th, 2019 at 7:12pm
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Rabbit_Reborn wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 5:13pm:
When Trump officials lie under investigation, even if it’s just the wrong month that something occurred, they’re going to jail.

Which Trump admin US govt officials are currently in jail?

I recall Petraeus, director of the CIA under Obama got convicted but got probation. Seems the supreme leader of the Deep StateTM CIA at least isn't immune.

Flynn lied to the FBI, but he certainly isn't in jail. I assume there must be some master list of Trump govt officials kicking their heels up in the hoosegow.

Quote:
What happens when intelligence officials lie to congress? What happened to Clapper? For a lie involving illegal surveillance of all of us?

So you are saying Congress didn't do their job and hold him accountable. Thanks for making my point about who ultimately owns this.
  

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Re: The Permanent State and the Intelligence Community are Dangerous
Reply #69 - Nov 12th, 2019 at 7:58pm
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Demos wrote on Nov 12th, 2019 at 10:03am:
It addresses your question of whether or not a candidate for President should be able to avoid scrutiny. If rooting out corruption is the motive, then there is an appropriate process for that.

The steps taken by the administration suggest that wasn't the motive. Going outside the legal bounds, involving Giuliani, and holding up appropriated funds in an - alleged - attempt to bribe or extort another party into investigating a political rival speaks more to personal benefit, i.e., benefiting your political campaign, than it does an interest in prosecuting corruption (since what's been alleged would be an example of corrupt behavior).


The steps, to me, suggest more an inexperienced president that doesn't even realize that these "proper" steps exist and doesn't really trust (and has been given myriad reasons not to) the "proper" procedures, as has been pointed out.

Either way, whatever you think the motive is or whatever I think the motive is matters little.  And the mere suggestion of a motive doesn't a motive make.

Either way, if Trump and his team are smart, Trump will argue that the motive was to condition the aid (as he should) on rooting out corruption.
  
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