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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Germany Shows Universal Healthcare is No Panacea (Read 146 times)
Wally Wants A Wall
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Germany Shows Universal Healthcare is No Panacea
Nov 7th, 2019 at 5:18pm
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To some, universal healthcare is a panacea that can bridge economic disparities and make the poor monumentally better off. But, in fact, there’s far more to healthcare outcomes than just taxpayer spending on medicine. Look no further than Germany, the first country in the developed world to implement a national, government-centric medical system. The government mandates, standardizes, and subsidizes care, and yet, struggling citizens still get subpar care. Germany’s experience should be a lesson for all of those calling for Medicare for All.

Reporting on healthcare access in a handful of poor neighborhoods in Hamburg, NPR contributor Shefali Luthra notes, “Entering these areas felt like stepping into another city, where even though people have universal insurance, high rates of chronic illnesses such as diabetes, depression and heart disease persist. Treatment and preventive care are difficult to access.” The lessons here are complicated, yet difficult for advocates of government-managed care to comprehend. State-centric solutions often fail to deliver the goods, while ignoring the real reasons why medical problems persist. Working-class Americans can see a cleaner bill of health, but only through greater choice and competition.

In her reporting, Luthra observes that the life expectancy for people living in the poor Hamburg neighborhoods of Veddel and Billstedt trails wealthier city areas by 13 years, similar to the rich-poor gap in major American cities. Walking in neighborhoods such as Veddel (Hamburg) and West Oakland (California), one notices striking commonalities in healthcare access despite different national and state policies. Residents of both neighborhoods can find at least some healthcare in clinics underwritten by taxpayer funds, whether by Medicaid-supported facilities in the US or the Poliklinik Veddel in Hamburg.

But these taxpayer ventures are doomed to fall flat when they fail to move the needle, and decrease choices for consumers. There’s a lack of medical personnel in places like Veddel precisely because, in the words of Luthra, there’s “a shortage of doctors willing to work in this part of town.” When asked to relocate to a rough area of town without a significant bump in pay, many physicians will simply decline and continue to work in neighborhoods where they feel more comfortable. There’s already a large, related problem in the U.S., where physicians with a large percentage of Medicaid payments must accept lower salaries than their private insurance-funded counterparts. For this reason, roughly three in ten physicians don’t accept Medicaid patients. The physicians that do accept Medicaid tend to offer lower-quality care in worse settings.

This system of low reimbursement would just get worse if Senator (and presidential hopeful) Bernie Sanders’ (I-Vt.) “Medicare for All” proposal became the law of the land. Medical facilities across the U.S. would lose nearly $1 trillion in reimbursement revenue over the next decade. This would likely be too much to bear for physicians and hospitals in rural and underserved areas, a quarter of which are already on the brink of closure. Assuming some semblance of private insurance would be allowed to survive (not a safe assumption), the best hospitals and clinics would merely be clustered in the best neighborhoods populated by people able to dole out for luxury insurance. This is the case in Germany, where one tenth of the population can buy more extensive coverage and expedited visits. In fact, many healthcare “outposts” in poor German neighborhoods don’t have doctors at all and rely on counselors instead.

more... https://catalyst.independent.org/2019/11/05/germany-shows-universal-healthcare-i...

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Re: Germany Shows Universal Healthcare is No Panacea
Reply #1 - Nov 7th, 2019 at 6:53pm
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Wow.

It's as if the UK/NHS never existed.

Another false narrative thread from the LNFake Team...
  

 
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Limey.
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Re: Germany Shows Universal Healthcare is No Panacea
Reply #2 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:16am
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Wally Wants A Wall wrote on Nov 7th, 2019 at 5:18pm:
To some, universal healthcare is a panacea that can bridge economic disparities and make the poor monumentally better off. But, in fact, there’s far more to healthcare outcomes than just taxpayer spending on medicine. Look no further than Germany, the first country in the developed world to implement a national, government-centric medical system. The government mandates, standardizes, and subsidizes care, and yet, struggling citizens still get subpar care. Germany’s experience should be a lesson for all of those calling for Medicare for All.

Reporting on healthcare access in a handful of poor neighborhoods in Hamburg, NPR contributor Shefali Luthra notes, “Entering these areas felt like stepping into another city, where even though people have universal insurance, high rates of chronic illnesses such as diabetes, depression and heart disease persist. Treatment and preventive care are difficult to access.” The lessons here are complicated, yet difficult for advocates of government-managed care to comprehend. State-centric solutions often fail to deliver the goods, while ignoring the real reasons why medical problems persist. Working-class Americans can see a cleaner bill of health, but only through greater choice and competition.

In her reporting, Luthra observes that the life expectancy for people living in the poor Hamburg neighborhoods of Veddel and Billstedt trails wealthier city areas by 13 years, similar to the rich-poor gap in major American cities. Walking in neighborhoods such as Veddel (Hamburg) and West Oakland (California), one notices striking commonalities in healthcare access despite different national and state policies. Residents of both neighborhoods can find at least some healthcare in clinics underwritten by taxpayer funds, whether by Medicaid-supported facilities in the US or the Poliklinik Veddel in Hamburg.

But these taxpayer ventures are doomed to fall flat when they fail to move the needle, and decrease choices for consumers. There’s a lack of medical personnel in places like Veddel precisely because, in the words of Luthra, there’s “a shortage of doctors willing to work in this part of town.” When asked to relocate to a rough area of town without a significant bump in pay, many physicians will simply decline and continue to work in neighborhoods where they feel more comfortable. There’s already a large, related problem in the U.S., where physicians with a large percentage of Medicaid payments must accept lower salaries than their private insurance-funded counterparts. For this reason, roughly three in ten physicians don’t accept Medicaid patients. The physicians that do accept Medicaid tend to offer lower-quality care in worse settings.

This system of low reimbursement would just get worse if Senator (and presidential hopeful) Bernie Sanders’ (I-Vt.) “Medicare for All” proposal became the law of the land. Medical facilities across the U.S. would lose nearly $1 trillion in reimbursement revenue over the next decade. This would likely be too much to bear for physicians and hospitals in rural and underserved areas, a quarter of which are already on the brink of closure. Assuming some semblance of private insurance would be allowed to survive (not a safe assumption), the best hospitals and clinics would merely be clustered in the best neighborhoods populated by people able to dole out for luxury insurance. This is the case in Germany, where one tenth of the population can buy more extensive coverage and expedited visits. In fact, many healthcare “outposts” in poor German neighborhoods don’t have doctors at all and rely on counselors instead.

more... https://catalyst.independent.org/2019/11/05/germany-shows-universal-healthcare-i...

" Give 'em Hell, Harry! "   I just give them the truth and it sounds like hell!



Interesting

Germany's system is a lot cheaper than America's but outcomes are similar?


It's clearly an article making the case for prompt socialising of healthcare.
  

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Re: Germany Shows Universal Healthcare is No Panacea
Reply #3 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:23am
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Limey. wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:16am:
Interesting

Germany's system is a lot cheaper than America's but outcomes are similar?


It's clearly an article making the case for prompt socialising of healthcare.


sounds bit like my canadian brother in law...they pay 3+x what we do for gas, tax rates are astronomically higher both federally, locally and sales tax thru the roof...but healthcare is free according to him...

(and the care sucks)
  
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Re: Germany Shows Universal Healthcare is No Panacea
Reply #4 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:31am
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petep wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:23am:
sounds bit like my canadian brother in law...they pay 3+x what we do for gas, tax rates are astronomically higher both federally, locally and sales tax thru the roof...but healthcare is free according to him...

(and the care sucks)


The care does not suck. I hang online daily with a half dozen Canadians. Was on group audio chat with them just last night.

They laugh at you when you say their healthcare sucks. Not one of them would trade. And one of them had his leg rolled up like a fruit roll-up in an accident 12 years ago. Turned his leg into a giant meat sock. Even fractured his hip and pelvis. The canadian healthcare system took complete care of him...even using experimental ketamine drip to reset the main nerve in his leg to finally end the ongoing excruciating pain.

If that happened to him here, he'd be bankrupt and homeless over millions of dollars in hospital bills.

Stop lying. Their healthcare does not suck...and not a single canadian would trade what they have for our shitty shitty shitty insurance based system.

Y'all forget...we all can talk to canadians in an instance now because of technology. Your lies worked before the world became a small place with technology advancements.

So come up with something else. Because NO ONE other than other right wingers believe that made up old talking point anymore.
  

Wally Wants A Wall wrote on Aug 13th, 2019 at 5:36pm:
In 2020, when President Trump is reelected and we retake the House and gain a fillabuster proof majority in the Senate, then you can blame President Trump and the Republicans for this continuing mess in Washington.


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Re: Germany Shows Universal Healthcare is No Panacea
Reply #5 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:36am
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Buddy_Love wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:31am:
The care does not suck. I hang online daily with a half dozen Canadians. Was on group audio chat with them just last night.

They laugh at you when you say their healthcare sucks. Not one of them would trade. And one of them had his leg rolled up like a fruit roll-up in an accident 12 years ago. Turned his leg into a giant meat sock. Even fractured his hip and pelvis. The canadian healthcare system took complete care of him...even using experimental ketamine drip to reset the main nerve in his leg to finally end the ongoing excruciating pain.

If that happened to him here, he'd be bankrupt and homeless over millions of dollars in hospital bills.

Stop lying. Their healthcare does not suck...and not a single canadian would trade what they have for our shitty shitty shitty insurance based system.

Y'all forget...we all can talk to canadians in an instance now because of technology. Your lies worked before the world became a small place with technology advancements.

So come up with something else. Because NO ONE other than other right wingers believe that made up old talking point anymore.


i lived there for 4 years, working for a canadian company in montreal...it sucks....compared to the US...

when I had cancer I consulted with two docs in montreal...it was going to be 4 weeks for my scans, 4 weeks to get them read, 4-6 weeks to schedule surgery...and if it spread another 6 weeks to start chemo...

in the states, univ of miami sylvester center....went to specialist on tuesday, scans wed am, read by wed afternoon, surgery thursday am at 7....when they found it had spread one month later, the test came in on a wed, and I started chemo monday...

for the cancer I had waiting 3-6 weeks from a stage I diagnosis is the difference between a 90% cure rate and a death sentence (under 10% cure rate)...
  
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Re: Germany Shows Universal Healthcare is No Panacea
Reply #6 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:37am
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petep wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:36am:
i lived there for 4 years, working for a canadian company in montreal...it sucks....compared to the US...

when I had cancer I consulted with two docs in montreal...it was going to be 4 weeks for my scans, 4 weeks to get them read, 4-6 weeks to schedule surgery...and if it spread another 6 weeks to start chemo...

in the states, univ of miami sylvester center....went to specialist on tuesday, scans wed am, read by wed afternoon, surgery thursday am at 7....when they found it had spread one month later, the test came in on a wed, and I started chemo monday...

for the cancer I had waiting 3-6 weeks from a stage I diagnosis is the difference between a 90% cure rate and a death sentence (under 10% cure rate)...


Yet a vast majority of Canadians would never trade their healthcare system for ours. Hmmm....I wonder why?
  

Wally Wants A Wall wrote on Aug 13th, 2019 at 5:36pm:
In 2020, when President Trump is reelected and we retake the House and gain a fillabuster proof majority in the Senate, then you can blame President Trump and the Republicans for this continuing mess in Washington.


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Re: Germany Shows Universal Healthcare is No Panacea
Reply #7 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:39am
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petep wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:36am:
i lived there for 4 years, working for a canadian company in montreal...it sucks....compared to the US...

when I had cancer I consulted with two docs in montreal...it was going to be 4 weeks for my scans, 4 weeks to get them read, 4-6 weeks to schedule surgery...and if it spread another 6 weeks to start chemo...

in the states, univ of miami sylvester center....went to specialist on tuesday, scans wed am, read by wed afternoon, surgery thursday am at 7....when they found it had spread one month later, the test came in on a wed, and I started chemo monday...

for the cancer I had waiting 3-6 weeks from a stage I diagnosis is the difference between a 90% cure rate and a death sentence (under 10% cure rate)...



Nah..  Probably didn't happen that way .. I have friends in Canada and have discussed healthcare many times.  They've never heard of the wacky and emotional crap some right-wingers spew ..

  

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Re: Germany Shows Universal Healthcare is No Panacea
Reply #8 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:41am
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Don't you think it's interesting that it's been 10 years since the Democrats "fixed" our healthcare system, but healthcare is still the #1 issue for the American people?

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Re: Germany Shows Universal Healthcare is No Panacea
Reply #9 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:44am
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The AARP absolutely SMASHING the dumb talking point myths that republicants have been using for decades:

https://www.aarp.org/politics-society/government-elections/info-03-2012/myths-ca...

Quote:
How does the U.S. health care system stack up against Canada’s? You’ve probably heard allegedly true horror stories about the Canadian system — like 340-day waits for knee replacement surgery, for example.

To separate fact from fiction, Aaron E. Carroll, M.D., the director of the Center for Health Policy and Professionalism Research in Indianapolis, identified the top myths about the two health care systems.

Myth #1: Canadians are flocking to the United States to get medical care.

How many times have you heard that Canadians, frustrated by long wait times and rationing where they live, come to the United States for medical care?

I don’t deny that some well-off people might come to the United States for medical care. If I needed a heart or lung transplant, there’s no place I’d rather have it done. But for the vast, vast majority of people, that’s not happening.

The most comprehensive study I’ve seen on this topic — it employed three different methodologies, all with solid rationales behind them — was published in the peer-reviewed journal Health Affairs.

Source: “Phantoms in the Snow: Canadians’ Use of Health Care Services in the United States,” Health Affairs, May 2002.

The authors of the study started by surveying 136 ambulatory care facilities near the U.S.-Canada border in Michigan, New York and Washington. It makes sense that Canadians crossing the border for care would favor places close by, right? It turns out, however, that about 80 percent of such facilities saw, on average, fewer than one Canadian per month; about 40 percent had seen none in the preceding year.

Then, the researchers looked at how many Canadians were discharged over a five-year period from acute-care hospitals in the same three states. They found that more than 80 percent of these hospital visits were for emergency or urgent care (that is, tourists who had to go to the emergency room). Only about 20 percent of the visits were for elective procedures or care.

Next, the authors of the study surveyed America’s 20 “best” hospitals — as identified by U.S. News & World Report — on the assumption that if Canadians were going to travel for health care, they would be more likely to go to the best-known and highest-quality facilities. Only one of the 11 hospitals that responded saw more than 60 Canadians in a year. And, again, that included both emergencies and elective care.

Finally, the study’s authors examined data from the 18,000 Canadians who participated in the National Population Health Survey. In the previous year, 90 of those 18,000 Canadians had received care in the United States; only 20 of them, however, reported going to the United States expressively for the purpose of obtaining care.

Myth #2: Doctors in Canada are flocking to the United States to practice.

Every time I talk about health care policy with physicians, one inevitably tells me of the doctor he or she knows who ran away from Canada to practice in the United States. Evidently, there’s a general perception that practicing medicine in the United States is much more satisfying than in Canada.

The Canadian Institute for Health Information has been tracking doctors’ destinations since 1992. Since then, 60 percent to 70 percent of the physicians who emigrate have headed south of the border. In the mid-1990s, the number of Canadian doctors leaving for the United States spiked at about 400 to 500 a year. But in recent years this number has declined, with only 169 physicians leaving for the States in 2003, 138 in 2004 and 122 both in 2005 and 2006. These numbers represent less than 0.5 percent of all doctors working in Canada.

So when emigration “spiked,” 400 to 500 doctors were leaving Canada for the United States. There are more than 800,000 physicians in the United States right now, so I’m skeptical that every doctor knows one of those émigrés.
In 2004, net emigration became net immigration. Let me say that again. More doctors were moving into Canada than were moving out.



Continued in the next post.
  

Wally Wants A Wall wrote on Aug 13th, 2019 at 5:36pm:
In 2020, when President Trump is reelected and we retake the House and gain a fillabuster proof majority in the Senate, then you can blame President Trump and the Republicans for this continuing mess in Washington.


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