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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Germany Shows Universal Healthcare is No Panacea (Read 144 times)
Buddy_Love
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Re: Germany Shows Universal Healthcare is No Panacea
Reply #10 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:44am
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Myth #3: Canada rations health care; that’s why hip replacements and cataract surgeries happen faster in the United States.

When people want to demonize Canada’s health care system — and other single-payer systems, for that matter — they always end up going after rationing, and often hip replacements in particular.

Take Republican Rep. Todd Akin of Missouri, for example. A couple of years ago he took to the House floor to tell his colleagues:

“I just hit 62, and I was just reading that in Canada [if] I got a bad hip I wouldn’t be able to get that hip replacement that [Rep. Dan Lungren] got, because I’m too old! I’m an old geezer now and it’s not worth a government bureaucrat to pay me to get my hip fixed.”

Sigh.

This has been debunked so often, it’s tiring. The St. Louis Post-Dispatch, for example, concluded: “At least 63 percent of hip replacements performed in Canada last year [2008] ... were on patients age 65 or older.” And more than 1,500 of those, it turned out, were on patients over 85.

The bottom line: Canada doesn’t deny hip replacements to older people.

But there’s more.

Know who gets most of the hip replacements in the United States? Older people.

Know who pays for care for older people in the United States? Medicare.

Know what Medicare is? A single-payer system.

Myth #4: Canada has long wait times because it has a single-payer system.

The wait times that Canada might experience are not caused by its being a single-payer system.

Wait times aren’t like cancer. We know what causes wait times; we know how to fix them. Spend more money.

Our single-payer system, which is called Medicare (see above), manages not to have the “wait times” issue that Canada’s does. There must, therefore, be some other reason for the wait times. There is, of course.
In 1966, Canada implemented a single-payer health care system, which is also known as Medicare. Since then, as a country, Canadians have made a conscious decision to hold down costs. One of the ways they do that is by limiting supply, mostly for elective things, which can create wait times. Their outcomes are otherwise comparable to ours.

Please understand, the wait times could be overcome. Canadians could spend more. They don’t want to. We can choose to dislike wait times in principle, but they are a byproduct of Canada’s choice to be fiscally conservative.

Yes, they chose this. In a rational world, those who are concerned about health care costs and what they mean to the economy might respect that course of action. But instead, they attack the system.

Myth #5: Canada rations health care; the United States doesn’t.

This one’s a little bit tricky. The truth is, Canada may “ration” by making people wait for some things, but here in the United States we also “ration” — by cost.

An 11-country survey carried out in 2010 by the Commonwealth Fund, a Washington-based health policy foundation, found that adults in the United States are by far the most likely to go without care because of cost. In fact, 42 percent of the Americans surveyed did not express confidence that they would be able to afford health care if seriously ill.

Source: “How Health Insurance Design Affects Access to Care and Costs, by Income, in Eleven Countries,” Health Affairs, November 2010.

Further, about a third of the Americans surveyed reported that, in the preceding year, they didn’t go to the doctor when sick, didn’t get recommended care when needed, didn’t fill a prescription or skipped doses of medications because of cost.

Finally, about one in five of the Americans surveyed had struggled to pay or were unable to pay their medical bills in the preceding year. That was more than twice the percentage found in any of the other 10 countries.

And remember: We’re spending way more on health care than any other country, and for all that money we’re getting at best middling results.

So feel free to have a discussion about the relative merits of the U.S. and Canadian health care systems. Just stick to the facts.
  

Wally Wants A Wall wrote on Aug 13th, 2019 at 5:36pm:
In 2020, when President Trump is reelected and we retake the House and gain a fillabuster proof majority in the Senate, then you can blame President Trump and the Republicans for this continuing mess in Washington.


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Re: Germany Shows Universal Healthcare is No Panacea
Reply #11 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:45am
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Buddy_Love wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:37am:
Yet a vast majority of Canadians would never trade their healthcare system for ours. Hmmm....I wonder why?


I'm not sure how anyone could compare unless you lived in both places...

I do know that on the testicular cancer forum - tc-cancer - you will find many relatives of canadians who have dies or were misdiagnosed or waited to long begging canadians to get to the states to save themselves...and in miami I met three canadians who were in dire straits having waited to long after a misdiagnosis...and were told to get to the states...

I don't know anyone that went from the states to canada for care...

I'm sure many cubans like cuba...but on the whole, the rafts go from cuba to florida, not the other way around...
  
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Buddy_Love
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Re: Germany Shows Universal Healthcare is No Panacea
Reply #12 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:47am
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petep wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:45am:
I'm not sure how anyone could compare unless you lived in both places...

I do know that on the testicular cancer forum - tc-cancer - you will find many relatives of canadians who have dies or were misdiagnosed or waited to long begging canadians to get to the states to save themselves...and in miami I met three canadians who were in dire straits having waited to long after a misdiagnosis...and were told to get to the states...

I don't know anyone that went from the states to canada for care...

I'm sure many cubans like cuba...but on the whole, the rafts go from cuba to florida, not the other way around...


Lies.

  

Wally Wants A Wall wrote on Aug 13th, 2019 at 5:36pm:
In 2020, when President Trump is reelected and we retake the House and gain a fillabuster proof majority in the Senate, then you can blame President Trump and the Republicans for this continuing mess in Washington.


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petep
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Re: Germany Shows Universal Healthcare is No Panacea
Reply #13 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:48am
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Queshank wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:41am:
Don't you think it's interesting that it's been 10 years since the Democrats "fixed" our healthcare system, but healthcare is still the #1 issue for the American people?

Queshank


I've made that point in the past - that obamacare was supposed to fix it all...now we have higher costs, higher deductibles, lower access, fewer choices...oh, and 100% would be insured, which never happened...

some reform...

our resident nitwits respond with obamacare was just the start...

well it was a major start in the wrong direction...
  
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Re: Germany Shows Universal Healthcare is No Panacea
Reply #14 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:51am
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petep wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:48am:
I've made that point in the past - that obamacare was supposed to fix it all...now we have higher costs, higher deductibles, lower access, fewer choices...oh, and 100% would be insured, which never happened...


Let's hope next time they leave the Republicans and Insurance Companies out of the process altogether..

  

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Re: Germany Shows Universal Healthcare is No Panacea
Reply #15 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:52am
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petep wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:48am:
I've made that point in the past - that obamacare was supposed to fix it all...now we have higher costs, higher deductibles, lower access, fewer choices...oh, and 100% would be insured, which never happened...

some reform...

our resident nitwits respond with obamacare was just the start...

well it was a major start in the wrong direction...


Costs were shit before the ACA. Don't pretend like they weren't. Our per capita has been double the country in second place for a couple decades now.

And in states that opted in, the ACA has been pretty good. I know it's changed my life for the better.

But it certainly doesn't go far enough towards universal healthcare.
  

Wally Wants A Wall wrote on Aug 13th, 2019 at 5:36pm:
In 2020, when President Trump is reelected and we retake the House and gain a fillabuster proof majority in the Senate, then you can blame President Trump and the Republicans for this continuing mess in Washington.


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Buddy_Love
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Re: Germany Shows Universal Healthcare is No Panacea
Reply #16 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:53am
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Queshank wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:41am:
Don't you think it's interesting that it's been 10 years since the Democrats "fixed" our healthcare system, but healthcare is still the #1 issue for the American people?

Queshank


When Obama removed the public option before even sitting down to negotiate, I was furious.

Who does that? You don't remove things BEFORE you go to negotiate. Never ever ever. Go to the negotiation table with EVERYTHING you want....and even more.
  

Wally Wants A Wall wrote on Aug 13th, 2019 at 5:36pm:
In 2020, when President Trump is reelected and we retake the House and gain a fillabuster proof majority in the Senate, then you can blame President Trump and the Republicans for this continuing mess in Washington.


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Queshank
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Re: Germany Shows Universal Healthcare is No Panacea
Reply #17 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:54am
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petep wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:48am:
I've made that point in the past - that obamacare was supposed to fix it all...now we have higher costs, higher deductibles, lower access, fewer choices...oh, and 100% would be insured, which never happened...

some reform...

our resident nitwits respond with obamacare was just the start...

well it was a major start in the wrong direction...


Yeah.  It was trying to work with health insurance companies.

Wrong direction indeed.  We warned them.

Queshank
  

The question isn't whether or not we're descended from monkeys.  The question is, when are we going to stop descending?
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Re: Germany Shows Universal Healthcare is No Panacea
Reply #18 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:54am
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Buddy_Love wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:53am:
When Obama removed the public option before even sitting down to negotiate, I was furious.

Who does that? You don't remove things BEFORE you go to negotiate. Never ever ever. Go to the negotiation table with EVERYTHING you want....and even more.


What's heartbreaking about it is, he was trying to negotiate *with Democrats.*  It was Democrats who forced the removal of the public option.

Broke my heart.

Queshank
  

The question isn't whether or not we're descended from monkeys.  The question is, when are we going to stop descending?
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Buddy_Love
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Re: Germany Shows Universal Healthcare is No Panacea
Reply #19 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 11:01am
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Queshank wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:54am:
What's heartbreaking about it is, he was trying to negotiate *with Democrats.*  It was Democrats who forced the removal of the public option.

Broke my heart.

Queshank


Yep. Which is why I will never vote for another centrist DLC dem again. If I wanted that Id just vote for a republicant.
  

Wally Wants A Wall wrote on Aug 13th, 2019 at 5:36pm:
In 2020, when President Trump is reelected and we retake the House and gain a fillabuster proof majority in the Senate, then you can blame President Trump and the Republicans for this continuing mess in Washington.


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