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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Just in case you missed it... (Read 411 times)
TowardLiberty
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Just in case you missed it...
Nov 29th, 2019 at 11:54am
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"A peaceful Open Society is possible only if it renounces the method of creating solidarity that is most effective in the small group, namely acting on the principle that 'if people are to be in harmony, then let them strive for some common end.' This is the conception of creating coherence which leads straight to the interpretation of all politics as a matter of friend-enemy relations. It is also the device which has been effectively employed by all dictators." F A Hayek Law, Legislation & Liberty Vol 2


This is worth reading and re-reading, "as both nationalists and socialists continue to demand the pursuit of common ends and do indeed turn all politics into friend-enemy relationships and thereby feed the demand for authoritarian rule." (Hat tip to Steve Horwitz)

The liberal alternative is to promote a variegated or pluralist conception of social order. This means leaving room for people to realize their own ends. And it implies a politics that involves pursuing only but the most essential common ends, such as defense of person and property or some modest social safety net.

The more we try to organize society along the dimensions of common ends we have to discipline those with different views and values and thereby cultivate a politics of friend-enemy relations. And that ushers in the potential for authoritarianism.

TL;DR If you like living in a peaceful, open society, you need to adopt broadly liberal political preferences and avoid the excesses of nationalistic, socialistic or progressive conceits.
« Last Edit: Nov 29th, 2019 at 11:25pm by TowardLiberty »  

Open Trade, Open Borders, Taco Trucks on Every Corner

"It was the union of the anticapitalist forces of the Right and of the Left, the fusion of radical and conservative socialism, which drove out from Germany everything that was liberal.” F A Hayek
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TowardLiberty
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Re: Just in case you missed it...
Reply #1 - Nov 29th, 2019 at 11:19pm
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To put a finer point on it:

If your pet policy proposals do not leave room for people with other values to make their own choices, you're leading us down the path to authoritarianism.

Liberalism and pluralism are the only options if we wish to maintain a free society.
  

Open Trade, Open Borders, Taco Trucks on Every Corner

"It was the union of the anticapitalist forces of the Right and of the Left, the fusion of radical and conservative socialism, which drove out from Germany everything that was liberal.” F A Hayek
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The D-Man
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Re: Just in case you missed it...
Reply #2 - Nov 30th, 2019 at 12:43am
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TowardLiberty wrote on Nov 29th, 2019 at 11:19pm:
To put a finer point on it:

If your pet policy proposals do not leave room for people with other values to make their own choices, you're leading us down the path to authoritarianism.

Liberalism and pluralism are the only options if we wish to maintain a free society.


What's the problem with people with different ways living in different places?
  

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TowardLiberty
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Re: Just in case you missed it...
Reply #3 - Nov 30th, 2019 at 1:18am
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The D-Man wrote on Nov 30th, 2019 at 12:43am:
What's the problem with people with different ways living in different places?

I'm not sure there is one.
  

Open Trade, Open Borders, Taco Trucks on Every Corner

"It was the union of the anticapitalist forces of the Right and of the Left, the fusion of radical and conservative socialism, which drove out from Germany everything that was liberal.” F A Hayek
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TowardLiberty
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Re: Just in case you missed it...
Reply #4 - Nov 30th, 2019 at 3:43am
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In fact, I don't think it is possible to get a different result.

Everyone is unique and no two people can share the same space.
  

Open Trade, Open Borders, Taco Trucks on Every Corner

"It was the union of the anticapitalist forces of the Right and of the Left, the fusion of radical and conservative socialism, which drove out from Germany everything that was liberal.” F A Hayek
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The D-Man
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Re: Just in case you missed it...
Reply #5 - Nov 30th, 2019 at 3:50am
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TowardLiberty wrote on Nov 30th, 2019 at 1:18am:
I'm not sure there is one.


Wouldn't that be nationalism?
  

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Re: Just in case you missed it...
Reply #6 - Nov 30th, 2019 at 6:50am
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The D-Man wrote on Nov 30th, 2019 at 12:43am:
What's the problem with people with different ways living in different places?


That's segregation and boring.
  
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Wadsworth
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Re: Just in case you missed it...
Reply #7 - Nov 30th, 2019 at 9:33am
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crepe05 wrote on Nov 30th, 2019 at 6:50am:
That's segregation and boring.

People are free to self segregate
  

The most ridiculous statement ever from Lomelis
Lomelis wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 3:03am:
This is why people need to turn against the gov in general.  Only going to get worse.
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TowardLiberty
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Re: Just in case you missed it...
Reply #8 - Nov 30th, 2019 at 12:02pm
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The D-Man wrote on Nov 30th, 2019 at 3:50am:
Wouldn't that be nationalism?

You can have open borders nationalism. It's not populist but it is coherent.
  

Open Trade, Open Borders, Taco Trucks on Every Corner

"It was the union of the anticapitalist forces of the Right and of the Left, the fusion of radical and conservative socialism, which drove out from Germany everything that was liberal.” F A Hayek
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The D-Man
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Re: Just in case you missed it...
Reply #9 - Nov 30th, 2019 at 3:01pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Nov 30th, 2019 at 12:02pm:
You can have open borders nationalism. It's not populist but it is coherent.


The problem with that is that some people's ways will be more prosperous than others'. This would create the desire for people with less prosperous ways to go to the places of people with more prosperous ways. But when they do, many of them will also want to bring their ways. So the goal of people with different ways living in different places is undermined.

I think the only way people with different ways can live in different places is with closed borders, because otherwise there will be that tendency for people with less prosperous ways to want to go where the prosperous ways are, but also to keep their own ways.

If the problem with closed borders is that it requires authoritarianism to keep people out, the same would be true of open borders, in that authoritarianism would be required to make people with more prosperous ways let people with less prosperous ways in. The only difference is who the authoritarianism is directed at, either the people who want to come in, or the people who don't want to let them in.

You might think of it as a house where an outsider wants to come in, but the residents don't want him to. The police could then use authoritarian means to keep the outsider out, or the police could use authoritarian means to quell unrest among the residents when the outsider comes in. Either way, authoritarianism will be used. The only question is who it will be directed against.
  

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