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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Just in case you missed it... (Read 408 times)
The D-Man
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Re: Just in case you missed it...
Reply #20 - Nov 30th, 2019 at 6:06pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Nov 30th, 2019 at 5:34pm:
A country is nothing like a house. You own your house and have control over it in a way that is impossible with a country because of the rights of other people.


A country and a house are no different. They are both legal constructs, with the decisions about how those constructs are defined made by people. If people want to say it's possible to have ownership of a house, they can make that happen. If they want to say it's possible to have ownership of a nation, they can make that happen. They can make happen anything they want, insofar as they have the force necessary to do so.
  

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TowardLiberty
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Re: Just in case you missed it...
Reply #21 - Nov 30th, 2019 at 6:17pm
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The D-Man wrote on Nov 30th, 2019 at 6:06pm:
A country and a house are no different. They are both legal constructs, with the decisions about how those constructs are defined made by people. If people want to say it's possible to have ownership of a house, they can make that happen. If they want to say it's possible to have ownership of a nation, they can make that happen. They can make happen anything they want, insofar as they have the force necessary to do so.

We're not talking about force. We are talking about what is consistent with private property and individual rights and what is not.

And your "the country is like a house" analogy fails that test.
  

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The D-Man
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Re: Just in case you missed it...
Reply #22 - Nov 30th, 2019 at 6:18pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Nov 30th, 2019 at 5:35pm:
If everyone has to adopt a policy that leaves them free to choose their own path, that's the opposite of a one size fits all policy. That's a many size fits all policy.


And yet everyone still has to adopt that one policy, so it's one-size-fits-all. Some people may not like pluralism. They may think that the more different ways there are in the same place, the less they are able to fully live their own way, and that may be true.

Some people may like a quite, serene, predictable, clean, orderly environment. And some people may like a loud, raucous, and wild environment. Under pluralism, people who like these different ways would live together and let everyone do things their own way. But those who like quiet will not be able to fully enjoy their own way with loud people around as much as they would if the quiet and loud people lived in separate places. So the quiet people may not like pluralism. It would be a shoe that would not fit them.

TowardLiberty wrote on Nov 30th, 2019 at 5:35pm:
That's clumsy because you're forcing people to move and splitting up the country. Far better to relax our politics and let people do their own thing while living right where they are.

And that has the added benefit of preserving freedom and keeping authoritarianism at bay.


No one would have to be forced to move. A place could simply be declared a place of people A rather than B, and polices that fit the ways of people A could be implemented. This would cause more of people A to move to that place of their own choice, and people B to move somewhere else of their own choice.

We could divide the country up into places A, B, C, and D, all with policies that fit people A, B, C, and D, and let people whose ways most closely align with those places move to those places of their own free will. The only problem I see with this is that some of the places, say place A, may end up being more prosperous, and then people in place D will want to move to place A, all the while keeping their ways of people D.

One way to fix this is to simply have polices in place A that fit the people of place A, and anyone who moves there has to abide by. So if people D want to move to place A, they have to become people A. They can't move there and still be people D, because the policies of place A prohibit that.
  

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The D-Man
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Re: Just in case you missed it...
Reply #23 - Nov 30th, 2019 at 6:21pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Nov 30th, 2019 at 6:17pm:
We're not talking about force. We are talking about what is consistent with private property and individual rights and what is not.

And your "the country is like a house" analogy fails that test.


What is "private property" and what are your "rights" to it except those that you can defend by force, or that a government can defend by force? Without that force, what more "right" do you have to your "private property" than someone else who says that your "private property" is his?

I can't think of anything except force, either your own force or that of a government, that supports property rights.
  

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Re: Just in case you missed it...
Reply #24 - Nov 30th, 2019 at 6:57pm
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I see a lot I need to respond to. Excuse me if I take the night off and put off those posts until tomorrow.
  

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The D-Man
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Re: Just in case you missed it...
Reply #25 - Nov 30th, 2019 at 7:04pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Nov 30th, 2019 at 6:57pm:
I see a lot I need to respond to. Excuse me if I take the night off and put off those posts until tomorrow.


One of the most important is the issue of private property rights.

Let's take it to a scenario where for the moment we can take the government out of it to simplify our concepts. Later we can put the government back in if we need to and we think it makes a difference.

Say you're stranded on a deserted island with no weapons and you build a hut. Is that hut your private property? What rights do you have to it?

Then say someone else washes up, and he has a gun. He says your hut is now his and you need to leave.

Do you have any right to the hut? What if the man with the gun says you don't? How can we tell who is right?
  

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Re: Just in case you missed it...
Reply #26 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 8:43am
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TowardLiberty wrote on Nov 29th, 2019 at 11:54am:


This is worth reading and re-reading, "as both nationalists and socialists continue to demand the pursuit of common ends and do indeed turn all politics into friend-enemy relationships and thereby feed the demand for authoritarian rule." (Hat tip to Steve Horwitz)

The liberal alternative is to promote a variegated or pluralist conception of social order. This means leaving room for people to realize their own ends. And it implies a politics that involves pursuing only but the most essential common ends, such as defense of person and property or some modest social safety net.

The more we try to organize society along the dimensions of common ends we have to discipline those with different views and values and thereby cultivate a politics of friend-enemy relations. And that ushers in the potential for authoritarianism.

TL;DR If you like living in a peaceful, open society, you need to adopt broadly liberal political preferences and avoid the excesses of nationalistic, socialistic or progressive conceits.


if you want a freedoms, liberty, and choice, make sure you keep most of the money you earn...

as soon as you are working for gov't thru taxation...whether that gov't is promising a massive military complex/homeland security....or that gov't is promising free healthcare, free education, and free everything else....

you have lost your ability to choose in life...and you are now part of a commune, and you can't come or go or choose as you please...
  
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Re: Just in case you missed it...
Reply #27 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 10:22am
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Wadsworth wrote on Nov 30th, 2019 at 9:33am:
People are free to self segregate


I agree as long as they follow the rules of our nation and not the nation from which they came, e.g. Sharia Law.
  
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Re: Just in case you missed it...
Reply #28 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 10:26am
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The D-Man wrote on Nov 30th, 2019 at 7:04pm:
One of the most important is the issue of private property rights.

Let's take it to a scenario where for the moment we can take the government out of it to simplify our concepts. Later we can put the government back in if we need to and we think it makes a difference.

Say you're stranded on a deserted island with no weapons and you build a hut. Is that hut your private property? What rights do you have to it?

Then say someone else washes up, and he has a gun. He says your hut is now his and you need to leave.

Do you have any right to the hut? What if the man with the gun says you don't? How can we tell who is right?


At that point, what is "right" doesn't matter.  The man with a gun has the power,  You better give up the hut and leave or build another hut.

On edit It might change if there were three people, but there aren't.
  
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Re: Just in case you missed it...
Reply #29 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 11:29am
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The D-Man wrote on Nov 30th, 2019 at 5:25pm:
It is undermined because in the beginning, people with different ways live in different places.


No, that's not correct. You're positing some prior homogenization... which is silly. You won't find it in a place with any sizable population. And even in small populations there are differences among people in terms of their likes and wants, temperament, personality, etc.

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However, because some of those ways lead to greater prosperity, those with different ways will want to move to the place of greater prosperity. When they do, they will bring their ways of lesser prosperity with them. They will want to gain from the prosperity of the other ways while keeping their own ways.


If that were true places with robust immigration would be poorer, not richer.

Reality has a pro-immigration bias.

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If people don't want open borders because they like their own ways and they don't like other people coming in who change the ways of the land, authoritarian force will have to be used to make those people comply with open borders unwillingly.


Not at all. There are a lot of things other people do that I don't like but since I am civilized I respect their right to do as they please. No force is necessary.

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Upon what basis do you "own" your house except by the force you use to keep people out of it or by the force the government would use to keep people out of it because of a legal contract of ownership you have in the house? There is no ownership of your house that you can claim against another person except by those means of force. Thus ownership of a house is based on the authoritarian use of force, either your own personal force or the authoritarian force of the government.


Prior to government people allocated property titles and settled disputes using arbitration- without force or authority or government.

The basis of ownership is community norms about exchange, homesteading, contract, equity and liability. The government enforces it, yes, but not exclusively, and it is not the source of the practice of private property. That came about prior to government.

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On the other hand, someone who wanted to claim ownership of the house you claim to own could do so either by defeating you by force or by defeating the government by force. It is only because the latter is usually impossible that you are able to retain your "ownership" of your house.


Even that wouldn't pass muster because ethics, norms, the law, and so on are community determined. No one can gain ownership through theft. Ownership implies a socially recognized just claim.

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The same can be extended to the nation, such that citizens can own the nation solely based on their ability to use force to keep others out. Or, if they are not able to mount such force, they lose the ownership of their nation, just as you would lose the ownership of your house.

No one can own a nation unless they dispossess everyone in it.

We've already tossed the "nation is a house" analogy. There's no salvaging it.
« Last Edit: Dec 2nd, 2019 at 1:14pm by TowardLiberty »  

Open Trade, Open Borders, Taco Trucks on Every Corner

"It was the union of the anticapitalist forces of the Right and of the Left, the fusion of radical and conservative socialism, which drove out from Germany everything that was liberal.” F A Hayek
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