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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) We are half way there ... but still so far away (Read 1,562 times)
Wadsworth
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Re: We are half way there ... but still so far away
Reply #130 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 4:29pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 3:29pm:
I am a people. You're repeatedly insulting me. And you admit to not reading my posts.

The ball is in your court. Read the posts and respond if you wish.

Why are you derailing your own thread.  Is it because you have no rebuttal to my comment that it is silly to compare tariffs to wealth and marginal taxes.
  

The most ridiculous statement ever from Lomelis
Lomelis wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 3:03am:
This is why people need to turn against the gov in general.  Only going to get worse.
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TowardLiberty
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Re: We are half way there ... but still so far away
Reply #131 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 4:32pm
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Wadsworth wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 4:29pm:
you have no rebuttal to my comment that it is silly to compare tariffs to wealth and marginal taxes. 

Someone's not reading posts again...

Not saying who.  Lips Sealed Wink Grin Tongue

TowardLiberty wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 4:13pm:
I don't think anyone has said that tariffs are just like wealth taxes.

The point is that tariffs and wealth taxes, along with large busts in the stock market, reduce the value of assets held in private hands and therefore reduce the investment available to fund the demand for labor and other inputs which sustain the supply chain at its current rate of employment.

In other words, while unique among themselves, tariffs and wealth taxes *both* lead to contractions in spending which can become self-reinforcing and result in deflationary disequilibria economy wide.

  

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"It was the union of the anticapitalist forces of the Right and of the Left, the fusion of radical and conservative socialism, which drove out from Germany everything that was liberal.” F A Hayek
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Wadsworth
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Re: We are half way there ... but still so far away
Reply #132 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 4:34pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 4:13pm:
I don't think anyone has said that tariffs are just like wealth taxes.

The point is that tariffs and wealth taxes, along with large busts in the stock market, reduce the value of assets held in private hands and therefore reduce the investment available to fund the demand for labor and other inputs which sustain the supply chain at its current rate of employment.

In other words, while unique among themselves, tariffs and wealth taxes *both* lead to contractions in spending which can become self-reinforcing and result in deflationary disequilibria economy wide. That's code for recession.

Some stimulus program is called for depending on the size and scope of the tax.

Prices are sticky. We're all Keynesians now.

Trump's (comparatively meager) 75 billion annual tax has led to billions in bailouts and promises of billions more, along with a renewed monetary stimulus program.

Now imagine increasing that number by 400%. Now we're talking about a tax in the trillions.

There has never been a need for a stimulus program when taxing the 1%.   Taxes and stock market bust are not the same and does not have the same impact on the economy.
  

The most ridiculous statement ever from Lomelis
Lomelis wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 3:03am:
This is why people need to turn against the gov in general.  Only going to get worse.
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Wadsworth
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Re: We are half way there ... but still so far away
Reply #133 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 4:36pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 4:32pm:
Someone's not reading posts again...

Not saying who.  Lips Sealed Wink Grin Tongue


Stop playing games TL. When you do this, it just shows you lost the debate
  

The most ridiculous statement ever from Lomelis
Lomelis wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 3:03am:
This is why people need to turn against the gov in general.  Only going to get worse.
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TowardLiberty
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Re: We are half way there ... but still so far away
Reply #134 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 4:41pm
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Wadsworth wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 4:34pm:
There has never been a need for a stimulus program when taxing the 1%. 


Wrong. The 91% marginal tax of the 50's required a large stimulus program to make it happen without disrupting investment and aggregate demand. That stimulus program came in the form of a world on fire, less the vast majority of its productive capacity, the remainder of which was located primarily in the US.

The result was a massive surge in demand for US goods, credit, and labor.

You might say the US largely got rich "rebuilding" the world. We're not going to repeat that context. The 1950s and WWII are behind us, hopefully never to be repeated.

WWII was a once in a generation (or more) stimulus program for the US economy. And it made your 91% marginal tax rates (effective tax rates were far lower btw) possible.

Quote:
Taxes and stock market bust are not the same and does not have the same impact on the economy.

I've shown a very clear channel where they are related in an important aspect, namely, their effect on aggregate demand when billions or trillions are pulled out of the economy.

And since prices are sticky that can mean lay offs and idled resources.

Plug your ears, avert your eyes, stomp your feet. Do whatever you want. But it's true.
« Last Edit: Dec 2nd, 2019 at 4:58pm by TowardLiberty »  

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"It was the union of the anticapitalist forces of the Right and of the Left, the fusion of radical and conservative socialism, which drove out from Germany everything that was liberal.” F A Hayek
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TowardLiberty
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Re: We are half way there ... but still so far away
Reply #135 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 4:42pm
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Wadsworth wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 4:36pm:
Stop playing games TL. When you do this, it just shows you lost the debate

Theres's no debate here. You won't even read my posts. I am talking to myself and the rest of the board.
  

Open Trade, Open Borders, Taco Trucks on Every Corner

"It was the union of the anticapitalist forces of the Right and of the Left, the fusion of radical and conservative socialism, which drove out from Germany everything that was liberal.” F A Hayek
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petep
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Re: We are half way there ... but still so far away
Reply #136 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 5:01pm
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It's mind boggling that one cannot see the forest thru the trees...

If Bill has $100 to spend...and then you tax it at 90% and Bill is left with $10 to spend, instead of some higher amount Bill had pre-tax...Bill will buy less - no new boat, no new car,

and the $90 that gov't gets will be eaten up in admin costs, and whatever is left is used inefficiently, not producing anything of value....ie dept of energy, dept of education,

and the bottom will not see any of bills money...which is what I think they feel will happen when Bernie promises to bury peter to pay paul.
  
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Re: We are half way there ... but still so far away
Reply #137 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 6:00pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 4:41pm:
Wrong. The 91% marginal tax of the 50's required a large stimulus program to make it happen without disrupting investment and aggregate demand. That stimulus program came in the form of a world on fire, less the vast majority of its productive capacity, the remainder of which was located primarily in the US.

The result was a massive surge in demand for US goods, credit, and labor.

You might say the US largely got rich "rebuilding" the world. We're not going to repeat that context. The 1950s and WWII are behind us, hopefully never to be repeated.

WWII was a once in a generation (or more) stimulus program for the US economy. And it made your 91% marginal tax rates (effective tax rates were far lower btw) possible.

I've shown a very clear channel where they are related in an important aspect, namely, their effect on aggregate demand when billions or trillions are pulled out of the economy.

And since prices are sticky that can mean lay offs and idled resources.

Plug your ears, avert your eyes, stomp your feet. Do whatever you want. But it's true.

Massive productivity is not a stimulus program, derp.  stock crashes have hurt the economy, taxing the rich has not.  You have shown no example as to where a tax on the rich has hurt the economy.
  

The most ridiculous statement ever from Lomelis
Lomelis wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 3:03am:
This is why people need to turn against the gov in general.  Only going to get worse.
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TowardLiberty
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Re: We are half way there ... but still so far away
Reply #138 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 7:27pm
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Wadsworth wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 6:00pm:
Massive productivity is not a stimulus program, derp. 


I think you're misreading that. I am not claiming that productivity is a stimulus program, I am claiming all that post WWII demand for US goods, credit and labor (which was an artifact of the war and it's destruction) constituted a major stimulus to US economic growth.

That is not and should not be a controversial claim.

And it goes without saying that we are not likely to live through another event like that.

Quote:
stock crashes have hurt the economy, taxing the rich has not.  You have shown no example as to where a tax on the rich has hurt the economy.

I have given you multiple links which give examples of that very thing. Wealth taxes in Europe have hurt their economies. It has distorted investment. It has led to capital flight. It has led to losses in tax revenues. These are the cited reasons for those European nations largely abandoning wealth taxes.

You would know that if you actually read any of this.
  

Open Trade, Open Borders, Taco Trucks on Every Corner

"It was the union of the anticapitalist forces of the Right and of the Left, the fusion of radical and conservative socialism, which drove out from Germany everything that was liberal.” F A Hayek
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Wadsworth
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Re: We are half way there ... but still so far away
Reply #139 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 7:43pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 7:27pm:
I think you're misreading that. I am not claiming that productivity is a stimulus program, I am claiming all that post WWII demand for US goods, credit and labor (which was an artifact of the war and it's destruction) constituted a major stimulus to US economic growth.

That is not and should not be a controversial claim.

And it goes without saying that we are not likely to live through another event like that.

I have given you multiple links which give examples of that very thing. Wealth taxes in Europe have hurt their economies. It has distorted investment. It has led to capital flight. It has led to losses in tax revenues. These are the cited reasons for those European nations largely abandoning wealth taxes.

You would know that if you actually read any of this.

So why did you respond to my post stating that there was never a stimulus needed due to taxing the wealthy.
  

The most ridiculous statement ever from Lomelis
Lomelis wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 3:03am:
This is why people need to turn against the gov in general.  Only going to get worse.
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