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Liberty News ForumLNF Forums HerePolitical Opinion Page - The Hot Seat › Mark Ruffalo: Capitalism is killing us. It's time for an economic revolution.
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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Mark Ruffalo: Capitalism is killing us. It's time for an economic revolution. (Read 759 times)
TowardLiberty
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Re: Mark Ruffalo: Capitalism is killing us. It's time for an economic revolution.
Reply #60 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 12:43pm
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Fiddler wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 12:36pm:


Sure. But that occurred in the context of capitalism God.


Yes, capitalism God fosters improved techniques and technological progress.


Export? That almost sounds like exchange... and gasp.. capitalism God.

Also made possible by the context of capitalism God.

At this point... just give it up. Capitalism God has provided the context for immense increases in wealth and happiness. Denying that just makes you look crazy.



Humm mmm mmm m .... . . .  .. . Apparently there's just no downside to God capitalism 

Oh yea.. there's no causal argument linking capitalism to growth in living standards, falling prices, production, technological advancement... etc.

None at all.

It's all just one big correlation. Why not attribute the growth to the presence of oxygen? Carbon? The passage of time?

Come on.

Don't be silly.
  

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"It was the union of the anticapitalist forces of the Right and of the Left, the fusion of radical and conservative socialism, which drove out from Germany everything that was liberal.” F A Hayek
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TowardLiberty
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Re: Mark Ruffalo: Capitalism is killing us. It's time for an economic revolution.
Reply #61 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 12:46pm
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Surely God existed 5000 years ago. Why weren't there iPads in the ancient world?

You can't explain the modern world with things that have existed since the beginning of time, like god. You need a relatively recent change (a proximate cause) that tracks with the changes we have seen in real incomes, technological growth, population growth, etc.

And you need a causal explanation. Correlation won't do on it's own.

Luckily for us there is a 300 year old science that helps us answer these impossible riddles.

Jump up in my lap. I'm about to show you the world.
  

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"It was the union of the anticapitalist forces of the Right and of the Left, the fusion of radical and conservative socialism, which drove out from Germany everything that was liberal.” F A Hayek
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Fiddler
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Re: Mark Ruffalo: Capitalism is killing us. It's time for an economic revolution.
Reply #62 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 1:01pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 12:43pm:
Oh yea.. there's no causal argument linking capitalism to growth in living standards, falling prices, production, technological advancement... etc..


Oh I don't deny those things occurred..  It's your belief that Capitalism does not have a downside that repositions your argument into the realm of religious thought.

If it's good .. God Capitalism did it  .. If it's bad .. Human frailties are to blame .. Materialism, Avarice,

Capitalism almost invariably privatizes profits and socializing losses..

  

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Rabbit_Reborn
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Re: Mark Ruffalo: Capitalism is killing us. It's time for an economic revolution.
Reply #63 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 1:07pm
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Fiddler wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 1:01pm:
Oh I don't deny those things occurred..  It's your belief that Capitalism does not have a downside that repositions your argument into the realm of religious thought.

If it's good .. God Capitalism did it  .. If it's bad .. Human frailties are to blame .. Materialism, Avarice,

Capitalism almost invariably privatizes profits and socializing losses..


When a company is unable to sell it's products to willing consumers, how are those losses socialized unless it is through government bailout?
  

Wadsworth wrote on Sep 19th, 2019 at 3:31pm:
We are talking about this government, aren't we?  If we were any other kind of government like China or NK, we would not even be having this discussion because you would not even be allowed to own a gun. 


Vypr wrote on Oct 15th, 2019 at 8:25am:
By all accounts Syria was somewhat calm.
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TowardLiberty
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Re: Mark Ruffalo: Capitalism is killing us. It's time for an economic revolution.
Reply #64 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 1:08pm
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Fiddler wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 1:01pm:
Oh I don't deny those things occurred..  It's your belief that Capitalism does not have a downside that repositions your argument into the realm of religious thought.

If it's good .. God Capitalism did it  .. If it's bad .. Human frailties are to blame .. Materialism, Avarice,

Capitalism almost invariably privatizes profits and socializing losses..


I see a giant straw man argument that fails to address the point. I have never said anything about capitalism being some utopia. It's the least worst system we have. That's my claim.

But it has provided the context for something that was never before possible in human history, lifting millions billions out of poverty and bringing dignity to people who in previous social systems were serfs or slaves.

That's my second claim (and the subject of this thread).

You deny that capitalism has generated anything good, let alone anything spectacularly good like the 3000% increase in incomes since 1800.

For that, you live in an alternative reality. And you are denying science.
« Last Edit: Dec 2nd, 2019 at 1:32pm by TowardLiberty »  

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petep
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Re: Mark Ruffalo: Capitalism is killing us. It's time for an economic revolution.
Reply #65 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 1:19pm
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the bottom line is as consumers we have a demand for goods - food, cars, luxury items, housing etc -

people produce those goods.

in the private, capitalist system, people own these businesses...if they produce a product consumers value, maintain a good reputation, manage the business well...they generally succeed. The ones that do not do these things, fail

the other end of the spectrum is Socialism...gov't owns everything, and we all work for gov't -  no competition, no need to improve, no choice...think DMV, Dept of energy, dept of education, post office

when you have private ownership, but tax it so high that owners of business and the people working there, actually work for gov't...you are approaching Socialism.

If you trained your butt off for a mile race...and no matter how hard you trained, someone would add weights to you so your time never improves, why would you train?

Imagine trying to incent an employee with a bonus...and 90% of the bonus went to gov't if the person achieved the desired result. Just how  hard do you think the person would work to achieve the goal?
  
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TowardLiberty
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Re: Mark Ruffalo: Capitalism is killing us. It's time for an economic revolution.
Reply #66 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 1:30pm
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For 100 thousand plus years of human history and pre-history, not a lot changed.

Life was brutish, nasty and short. Every time some new invention or innovation helped us live a little easier, people had more kids, the population grew, it butted up against a relatively fixed supply of food, and we ended up with too many people and too little food. The Malthusian trap held as a rule. We starved and people died off until the population was again in harmony with the food supply. Rinse and repeat for centuries.

But something revolutionary changed in that story, for the first time in human history, around 400 years ago in northwestern Europe, and then it spread. That change was a shift in the culture surrounding the value and dignity that was placed on entrepreneurship, invention, investment, produce and profit seeking.

Laws were changed to reflect the new values. New leeway was given to average people to "have a go at it." The feudal world gave way to the capitalist-liberal-commercial world.

And the result was an explosion (a 3000% increase in income since 1800) in wealth and population. The modern world is a story of a "Great Enrichment."

And capitalism is the subtitle.

You say that's mere correlation. I laugh at that retort.

There is an obvious casual argument to be made between the mode of production (the use of money and exchange, entrepreneurship, competition) and the production of new goods and services, rising living standards and technological advancement.

Don't pretend it doesn't exist. Don't play stupid.
« Last Edit: Dec 2nd, 2019 at 3:56pm by TowardLiberty »  

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"It was the union of the anticapitalist forces of the Right and of the Left, the fusion of radical and conservative socialism, which drove out from Germany everything that was liberal.” F A Hayek
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petep
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Re: Mark Ruffalo: Capitalism is killing us. It's time for an economic revolution.
Reply #67 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 1:39pm
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Tl, you must understand some psychology...my ex wife was a miserable person...she came from a family that was always fighting with one another...when we met, she was like that...and I'm a problem solver from a caring, loving family...so I "enjoyed" reassuring her, and making her feel better...over time the arguing etc got more frequent and more intense...we saw several therapists/counselors...and inevitably they would say she needed help...

one counselor said to me that people who are not happy, will try to infect others who are happy, and drag them down...and oddly it makes them feel better about themselves.

Your argument/logic/history is spot on...

But those lazy slow runners who never train don't want to hear about the benefits of training, good diet etc...they'd rather stay in the back of the pack, and throw rocks at those running faster with the hopes of dragging them down, so they will feel better about themselves...

Some people are happier when everyone suffers equally...they hate success.
  
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TowardLiberty
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Re: Mark Ruffalo: Capitalism is killing us. It's time for an economic revolution.
Reply #68 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 2:04pm
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petep wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 1:39pm:
Tl, you must understand some psychology...my ex wife was a miserable person...she came from a family that was always fighting with one another...when we met, she was like that...and I'm a problem solver from a caring, loving family...so I "enjoyed" reassuring her, and making her feel better...over time the arguing etc got more frequent and more intense...we saw several therapists/counselors...and inevitably they would say she needed help...

one counselor said to me that people who are not happy, will try to infect others who are happy, and drag them down...and oddly it makes them feel better about themselves.

Your argument/logic/history is spot on...

But those lazy slow runners who never train don't want to hear about the benefits of training, good diet etc...they'd rather stay in the back of the pack, and throw rocks at those running faster with the hopes of dragging them down, so they will feel better about themselves...

Some people are happier when everyone suffers equally...they hate success.

I do believe there is deep-seated anti-science, anti-commerce, anti-bourgeois bias among our left wing friends.

But I do believe they are capable of getting marginally closer to an appreciation of markets and capitalism. This thread is an example.

We started off in a discussion with folks claiming capitalism made food expensive. Now we're discussing why food became so cheap (and why income have risen 3000% since 1800) in the capitalist world.

That's progress. We're getting closer to living in the same reality.
  

Open Trade, Open Borders, Taco Trucks on Every Corner

"It was the union of the anticapitalist forces of the Right and of the Left, the fusion of radical and conservative socialism, which drove out from Germany everything that was liberal.” F A Hayek
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petep
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Re: Mark Ruffalo: Capitalism is killing us. It's time for an economic revolution.
Reply #69 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 2:20pm
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TowardLiberty wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 2:04pm:
I do believe there is deep-seated anti-science, anti-commerce, anti-bourgeois bias among our left wing friends.

But I do believe they are capable of getting marginally closer to an appreciation of markets and capitalism. This thread is an example.

We started off in a discussion with folks claiming capitalism made food expensive. Now we're discussing why food became so cheap (and why income have risen 3000% since 1800) in the capitalist world.

That's progress. We're getting closer to living in the same reality.


there is an old saying...a conservative is a liberal who has been mugged....

I suspect in their personal lives they enjoy capitalism a great deal...I think greg was here one day super excited about his new car....live in cuba, you are not driving a new anything...I'm sure he worked hard to earn the money that bought it, and he will hopefully enjoy a good quality product, because the company had to "inject" quality to compete to with competitors...gov't does not have to do that...have a bad experience with the DMV...too bad, wait in line while 20 workers stand around....

  
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